Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

rockpapershotgun.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 377 posts

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#91

Post by andy99 »

jandrese wrote: post #51
daft_pink wrote: post #50

I don’t understand what gives the union power at the end of the day when the company could easily outsource development and license their ip and fire everyone. Automotive plants have large factories, but when the primary assets are intangible intellectual property, I don’t understand how much power a union really has.

If you think all developers are interchangeable you're the reason they're forming a union.

Being interchangeable is literally why unions are formed. If you have some unique skill set that is valued, a union is unnecessary and would hold you back. If you’re happy being slotted in to whatever the next available position is based on your seniority with no regard to you as an individual, unions are great.

That’s why they’re mostly autoworkers or longshoremen and whatnot an not professionals, outside a few niches motivated by ideology.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#92

Post by overfeed »

appreciatorBus wrote: post #86
overfeed wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that's cold comfort to someone who doesn't have a job because the company went out of business I suppose only those who lose their jobs because of a merger, or the CEO making poor decisions ought to get the warm and fuzzies because someone on the Internet won't blame them for their own misfortune. Somewhere on the spectrum between "egalitarian, flat organization Utopia" and "Slavery", one has to draw a line whe…

You forgot that collective ruin is also an option and we have seen this many times when societies attempted to do away with economic & market concepts.

Why is union-related collective ruin anathema, but elite-driven ruin is seen as an acceptable price to pay? Enron, the Great Recession, etc.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#93

Post by free_bip »

seneca wrote: post #76
hobs wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And its cold comfort to us all to basically say "let's all agree to slavery so nobody loses their jobs".

> And its cold comfort to us all to basically say "let's all agree to slavery so nobody loses their jobs". Comparing software development jobs in the modern United States to slavery is quite fanciful.

Game development is a lot different than "normal" software development. Usually involves a lot more crunch/unpaid overtime. Though yes, the comparison is hyperbole.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#95

Post by kmeisthax »

palmotea wrote: post #40
tehjoker wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions should focus on worker power, but staying away form politics entirely is called "economism" and "opportunism". Your bosses are political, they shape politics to mold the environment around you. Unions form the bedrock of worker power, and workers should advocate for a more democratic society against the oligarchs. We are some of the best positioned in society to do so because we control the means of production…

> Your bosses are political, they shape politics to mold the environment around you. Unions form the bedrock of worker power, and workers should advocate for a more democratic society against the oligarchs. We are some of the best positioned in society to do so because we control the means of production. I should clarify: I totally agree with being "political" in that area. The stuff I'm thinking about are things lik…

That's fine and all until the company hires black people or Palestinian refugees and then suddenly the union has[0] to care.

OK, that's a contrived scenario. But even outside of that scenario, social oppression is downstream of worker oppression. Cops aren't shooting black people because it's their kink, they're doing it to enforce the same social order that keeps your workers down. The next time the union strikes, those same cops are going to be there to break the picket line. Police are always the enemy of labor, and thus keeping the police in check is in-scope to a union's political activities.

[0] Ala https://xkcd.com/545/

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#96

Post by vkou »

prewett wrote: post #43
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

That assumes that the union never unfairly exploits the company. I think historical evidence shows that unions sometimes do exploit the company (and that union leaders sometimes exploit the members). Humans exploiting other humans is a flaw of all of us, not just corporate management.

> That assumes that the union never unfairly exploits the company.

Is that the bar we want a corporate environment to meet? No unfair exploitation of anyone ever?

If so, the existing structures sure as shit don't meet it. Why carry water for them?

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#97

Post by EliRivers »

mrsilencedogood wrote: post #7
nitwit005 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a factory, the owner has to deal with the cost of all the late or canceled deliveries. With farms, the crops wither on the vines. There's not really an equivalent with most service industries. Software engineers don't even need to be around for the programs to keep running.

"Software engineers don't even need to be around for the programs to keep running." Can you tell me where you work, and are you hiring???

I've taken money to create software for most of three decades and I don't think I've ever actually worked on software that needed the people who created it to be near it while it was running, once it was working.

I think the record single instance uptime on a customer site was most of a decade, running a TV station.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#98

Post by vkou »

appreciatorBus wrote: post #79
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

Employees being paid less than they would prefer to get paid for a given type of work does not imply "unfair exploitation"

Employers having to pay more than they'd prefer to pay for a given type of work/provide better working conditions does not imply "unfair exploitation" of the company by the union, either.

It's just a market reaching equilibrium. It's always weird how employees are forever to be expected to be at the mercy of market forces much greater than they are, while employers have to be shielded from them.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#99

Post by IshKebab »

Manuel_D wrote: post #44
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

The workers aren't drones, they have the agency to choose another job. If a company is underpaying workers relative to the rest of the market, they'll struggle to hire and retain employees without the interference of a union.

This is the magical "perfect competition" view of the market that often doesn't match reality at all.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#100

Post by an_cap »

FWIW, the union (CWA) via its Seattle affiliate tried to get OPT banned, a visa status that many readers of HN benefited from - https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/cadc/2.... I encourage HN readers to better understand the relationship between unions and immigration before deciding whether they are in favor of joining/supporting unions.
Post reply on HN