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Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

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Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#91

Post by titanomachy »

mothballed wrote: post #71
ohm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give some examples?

Guns and (relatively) freedom of speech (yes I'm aware it comes with asterisk) are the two big ones. If I left the USA it would probably be to a place with weak governance on these points in practice rather than on paper. Only Yemen, Iraq, Somaliland, parts of Pakistan, parts of Rojava and maybe KRG (Kurdistan), Idlib, and Palestine are only places I know of with looser (to me better) gun laws than America and out of…

I think relatively few people choose their home based on “where can I have the most guns and least oversight on banking”.

But I suspect that the people who care about these things care about them a LOT.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#92

Post by meindnoch »

masfuerte wrote: post #73
meindnoch wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yikes. There are lot of black people in Paris, but they're not necessarily American. In fact, most of them are from African French colonies.

WTF? How do you get from Americans to black people?

I think this is what they meant by "Paris is unrecognizable from his youth".

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#93

Post by Ylpertnodi »

kibwen wrote: post #25
lifeisgood99 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the boat is sinking, I wouldn't stay on.

Back in 1930s Germany, there were other boats afloat to escape to. Here in 2025, you live in a globalized world. The rats are soon to be out of ships to flee to. There's no free society in the Sol system that survives rampant and unchecked authoritarianism in the triad of the US, China, and Russia. Europe is a military vassal of the first, an economic vassal of the second, and an energy vassal of the third (though in…

If you think Europe is a military vassal of the US, I'd suggest a read of the latest US National Security Doctrine. China, agree. Russia? Not so much, now the war is 1385 days in - and the US is currently dilly-dally-ing on their stance(s).

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#94

Post by ramblerman »

lm28469 wrote: post #77
jbstack wrote: post #44

I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list ma…

> lists all of the reasons why countries with taxes are nice to live in > concludes by: "it would be perfect if not for taxes" People wouldn't be as friendly and well educated if they went bankrupt when losing their jobs, getting a cancer, had to take $100k loans for uni, &c. the towns wouldn't be nice and clean if people didn't pay taxes for regular cleaning, ... There are very very few countries with low taxes and…

Sorry but as a southern Neighbor you are painting a picture of Europe 20 years ago.

Taxes these days keep up the ponzi scheme of european pensions and an influx of low skilled migrants that are not incentivized to work.

There is a a lot of budget between ur citizens not going bankrupt when they get sick and taking 50% of their salary.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#95

Post by alamortsubite »

lunias wrote: post #53

Ah, yes. Of course, in the wake of the fall of the United States, everywhere else on earth will immediately flourish. Just my 2 cents, but before you leave, you might want to talk to some immigrants about what brought them to the United States in the first place.

I assume you mean people who have immigrated from the Netherlands to the U.S. in the past year? It'd be interesting to hear their thoughts, for sure. I don't think the data is available yet, but I expect those numbers are sharply down, so it might not be easy to find anyone to talk to.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#96

Post by neilv »

mothballed wrote: post #71
ohm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give some examples?

Guns and (relatively) freedom of speech (yes I'm aware it comes with asterisk) are the two big ones. If I left the USA it would probably be to a place with weak governance on these points in practice rather than on paper. Only Yemen, Iraq, Somaliland, parts of Pakistan, parts of Rojava and maybe KRG (Kurdistan), Idlib, and Palestine are only places I know of with looser (to me better) gun laws than America and out of…

If you moved to a place that was physically safe, would gun ownership still be a top priority?

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#97

Post by the_gastropod »

xp84 wrote: post #65
trvz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

For whatever it's worth, Mike Godwin, of Godwin's Law, has called the comparison of Trump to Hitler "apt". https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/12/19/godwins-la...

Editing to add:

> On the other hand, a liberal did kill Charlie Kirk in cold blood because the killer had a trans girlfriend and was mad about Kirk‘a opinions. So, maybe some people should be afraid of violence.

My friend, this is a clownshoes-ass take. First, the motives of this dude are still unknown. His entire family are Trump-supporters. Dude grew up shooting guns and being a good ol' boy (hence the reason he, y'know, had access to, and knowledge of how to shoot and kill someone from such a distance at the age of 22). Second, literally on the same day Kirk was killed, there was a school shooting by a literal Neo-Nazi. And a couple months prior to Kirk's killing, a Trump-voting, anti-abortion nutcase literally assassinated the leader of the Minnesota State House and her husband, shot and nearly killed a member of the State Senate and his wife, and had a list of 70 other, all democratic politicians, he'd apparently intended to assassinate. And here you are still focused on the one time you could shoehorn some cherry-pickin' ass example of an alleged "leftist" being violent into this conversation. For 30 years, right-wing extremist political violence has been far more common and far more deadly than their left-wing extremist counterparts. https://ccjls.scholasticahq.com/article/26973-far-left-versu...

The irony here is, you're simultaneously claiming it's ridiculous to suggest Trump wants to "round-up" liberals, while using the same bullshit guilt-by-extremely-stretched-association rhetoric about Kirk's assassination to paint "liberals" as violent that he's currently using to justify treating his critics as "terrorists". Read through this bad-boy, and with a straight face tell anyone Trump's not interested in "rounding up" his dissidents https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/09/coun... Would he be successful in trying this? Probably not. But I sure as hell don't feel one bit certain that people like you would move a muscle to stop it, being so easily convinced of such contemptible nonsense.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#98

Post by tga »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #78
briandw wrote: post #18

And go where? Seriously I don’t know of another country that isn’t on the same authoritarian track, if not further along. If anyone has done a serious study and come up with a country that still has strong judicial independence, due process, lack of censorship and respect for private property, Id love to know

The nordics? New Zealand? Any number of small countries (Belgium, Czechia) that still have a functional government that actually serves the people

Belgium is not not exactly known for its functional government. They have a lot of them and can't seem to quite keep them together.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/1862716/542-days-brussels-brea...

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#99

Post by stefantalpalaru »

xp84 wrote: post #47
showerst wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the root of it, isn't it? America is pretty great if you're in the upper 20% or so, and otherwise it's losing ground fast.

Perhaps, but the places where it’s arguably nicer (than US) to be bottom 50% are that way because of side-effects of America being how America has always been. Without things like US NATO membership, someone in, let’s say Europe, might eventually find themselves made forcibly familiar with what actual fascism is, by being “welcomed” into Soviet Union 2.0, now without the communist trappings. If you think Soviet bread…

[dead]

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#100

Post by toomuchtodo »

mvkel wrote: post #48

As an immigrant to the US, I've often viewed the fervent wish to depart (among natural born citizens) to be the ultimate form of self-entitlement. That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most. It's being tested right now, and leaving is the only way to fail. Also, why do you think any other country would -love- to have you?

The evidence broadly shows that the people who vote for this will not change their mind. Not when their farming business is likely going to fail due to tariffs (~78% of farmers voted for this), not when their North Carolina saw mill that has been in the family for forty years is forced to close (Mackey’s Ferry Sawmill), not when their ACA subsidies and SNAP benefits are pulled. One's presence and voice is immaterial. One can both vote and donate to campaigns from abroad; there is literally nothing one can do on US soil you cannot do from abroad while not exposing yourself and potentially family to a slowly failing and degrading governance system, that by all observations and evidence, hates its citizens with policy.

As I often ask when problem scoping, "What is your time horizon?" Will things change in 3, 5, 7, 10 years? ~2M voters 55+ die every year in the US, ~5k per day (mental models are rigid, progress occurs one funeral at a time as Planck said). Young voters were very excited for this admin, and now that vibes have met reality, they are not so excited, with a roughly 50 point swing in favorability in polling. I expect a swing back, considering recent elections over the last few weeks, but it will take quite some time.

So, from a first principles perspective, if you can live somewhere safer, better, or other idea of more favorable while losing nothing, why not? You can always move back if the US gets its shit together, and if it doesn't, you have made a home and life for yourself somewhere more favorable. Leaving is not giving up, it is merely having a better life experience while sacrificing nothing except US in person work opportunities and proximity to friends and loved ones (if applicable) for the time horizon in question. Some may feel entitled to functional governance systems, and they should (imho) vote with their feet and wallets. It is a rational evaluation in a volatile environment.

And if another country is offering you a residency visa or path to citizenship, they clearly want you. You might not be aware, but the developed world is going through a working age population crunch due to structural demographics; skilled workers are in demand, as well as those with either investment, pension, or social security income.

(think in systems)

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