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30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

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Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Brood War is the true apex - more than two races with significant differences and aggressive balancing. Warcraft II was what I LAN played the most so it has a special place in my heart though.

And it's still popular and actually playable today. Warcraft 2 is not really fun to play. Very clunky control, very outdated graphics, bad story telling. With Starcraft, my only real complain is terrible cinematics which just doesn't cut it today. Otherwise this game is as fun to play today, as it was 15 years ago.

> Warcraft 2 is not really fun to play.

Compared with a lot of ptesent games is luxury: no updates, no bullshit introduction, just play.

Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. I'm familiar with the Spring RTS FOSS project ( https://springrts.com ) which started as a reimplementation of TA, and of course Planetary Annihilation, but not "Beyond All Reason" - do you have an authoritative link?

The official website is https://www.beyondallreason.info/ It's an open-source project that started as a fork of SpringRTS. To my eye it looks nearly like a clone of Supreme Commander. I watched a few ranked 1v1 games on uThermal's YouTube channel (he's a former Starcraft 2 pro who mostly makes YouTube videos about Starcraft 2). Here's the playlist. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_USFDBbymGUwLPiopP2q...

Well, when I saw the first Supreme Commander video it looked a lot like Sprint RTS running Balanced Annihilation to me. Right down to how the terrain deformation worked and the command queuing.

Was there any particular reason for the fork? There's a lot of Spring RTS projects but they all use the same codebase. http://springrts.com/wiki/Games

Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#93
This is a really good and I think sadly under played and discussed game. It was very popular in the mid 1990s on release but it seems like it was immediately forgotten about once Starcraft arrived. It's unfortunate because yes it's a simpler and more straight forward game, and not as balanced, but it is very fun and pure.

Warcraft 1 is maybe too slow paced and basic to be enjoyable, but Warcraft 2 remains very playable, as many of the usability of features core to modern RTS games developed here. There are a few things missing, but that just means you have to be more on the ball with the micro.

The map editor was revolutionary at the time, and it was trivially easy to be making usable maps within minutes.

One thing that was delightful about this game was how the community discovered that Farms made for better walls than the actual walls, and so an enormous variety of strategies developed around this. As players developed knowledge of how units were pushed out of buildings, walling off buildings to push units past forest was another strategy that developed from this, creating the potential for sneaky tricks.

One unfortunate thing about the game was that during the original battlenet edition they added a new extra fast speed, which everyone moved to, but that speed actually kinda broke the game in that it became entirely possible to accidentally put your townhall too close to the mine, and your peons would be impossible to remove from mining. So in actuality the second to fastest speed is the correct speed for this game.

I hope this got fixed in the remaster but I heard it was a pretty basic art refresh...

Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#94

I worked backwards from Starcraft, and to my mind WC2 still feels a bit archaic, insofar as the two races feel nearly identical. WC3 did a better job of differentiating the Human and Orc units, and then of course added Dark Elves and the Undead to the mix, too. But I will say that WC2 is the last major RTS I can think of with naval combat. After Starcraft streamlined it to be land and air only, it seems the entire in…

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Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#95

I worked backwards from Starcraft, and to my mind WC2 still feels a bit archaic, insofar as the two races feel nearly identical. WC3 did a better job of differentiating the Human and Orc units, and then of course added Dark Elves and the Undead to the mix, too. But I will say that WC2 is the last major RTS I can think of with naval combat. After Starcraft streamlined it to be land and air only, it seems the entire in…

[deleted]

Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#96
post #41

The Kali TCP/IP IPX bridge allowed you to play this multiplayer over the internet, and the style of game was tolerant to low bandwidth and high pings. Which made this one of the first games that really provided a glimpse of the future of gaming (for better or worse, much of gaming has moved away from single person campaigns to multiplayer). I have so many great memories of this era in gaming because of this game and…

The poor floating point performance of many PCs at the time meant that a lot of code used ints rather than floats, making determinism much easier for multiplayer! I believe DOOM and Warcraft 2 simply did lockstep determinism across all clients. You could run the simulations forward completely deterministically due to use of its and fixed point math.

Quake did as well all the way up to Quake 3 I believe. The game was basically on a heartbeat based on the worst latency of the connected player. Everything got synchronized that way.

Back in the day, your gaming could be super wrecked if someone with a 300ms latency joined :D.

Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#97

If you still want to experience the joys of RTS... but struggle to play after so many years away, I highly recommend catching a few streams from Grubby. He plays WC3 and a few other games and is quite entertaining to watch. He is also crazy good... His typical APM during a game hovers between 200 and 250. He is an absolute beast at leveraging his items and maximizing his heroes' hp. https://youtu.be/qaaWsRfbsls?si=EJ…

i'd also recommend uthermal -- former pro sc2 player, he's got a really good attitude & makes a lot of entertaining videos

Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#98
post #90
post #41

The Kali TCP/IP IPX bridge allowed you to play this multiplayer over the internet, and the style of game was tolerant to low bandwidth and high pings. Which made this one of the first games that really provided a glimpse of the future of gaming (for better or worse, much of gaming has moved away from single person campaigns to multiplayer). I have so many great memories of this era in gaming because of this game and…

Do you or someone reading this know who would be the best person that would be willing to come on a guest on a podcast and has the correct knowledge (ideally the person who implemented in WC3, or something similar enough). Asking as I'm the host of netstack.fm, a podcast about networking and rust, but some episodes are just about networking alone. Would love to devote an episode to the Kali TCP/IP IPX bridge as there…

In grad school 15+ years ago I took a ‘user-centered innovation’ class and I wrote a paper on the topic of Kali and its predecessor: how gamers, not the game devs, made games built for IPX work across the internet. What is neat is early collab on the first ipx->tcp/ip bridge happened on Usenet, so you can find a record of the first doom deathmatch coordinated and played over the internet. I think I reached out to jay cotton (author of kali) via email and he answered my questions, so I’d try to track him down if I were you.

Sadly I didn’t make a backup of my paper (not sure how I managed to screw that up), so I no longer have it.

Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#99
Back then we were playing WarCraft II over a LAN with... The neighbors. We managed, as teenagers, to snatch some old 10BASE2 "ethernet over coax" gear: cables, BNC connectors and terminators, and most of all ethernet adapter cards.

We weren't fully geared though, so we'd assemble the cables manually, using whatever we could find to attach the connectors.

Then we'd use a long piece of string with something attached to it that we'd throw, from the 2nd or 3rd floor of the house, to the neighbor's house. And then we'd use the string to pull up the coax cable.

And then humans and little orcs would transit through the coax cables.

Oh the memories.

We'd also play and be ranked on Case's Ladder, for back then Battle.net didn't even exist yet. So it was all KALI to simulate a LAN over the Internet and play against strangers.

And we'd mod our WCII to use sound files from different languages: for the example for the flying machine I was fond of the italian version "machina volante".

It was... Our life? Only got dethroned as the best time-waster in our lives when the Counter-Strike beta came out (in 1999?). (I didn't like StarCraft but boy oh boy did I play Warcraft III a lot later on).

Re: 30 Year Anniversary of WarCraft II: Tides of Darkness

#100
post #4

The apex of RTS games -- what a great gaming era RIP. Since then graphics are way better but business models have just deteriorated and mass appeal has driven games.

I consider WCIII TFT the apex but that is because i really like the hero mechanic and it spawned so many amazing custom games, including the moba genre. I know AoS was first but dota really made it.

Footies was my favorite and I wish we got a new game out of that too.
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