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Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

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Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#91

Post by ceejayoz »

andreygrehov wrote: post #88
wnevets wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RFK Jr's FDA is imposing stricter vaccine protocols due to children deaths linked to Covid-19 vaccine-related myocarditis.

Are they lying about the deaths? I'm not following.

They aren't lying, in the sense that "Hitler provided free food, transportation, and housing to Europe's Jews" isn't technically a lie.

They are using a technically correct piece of data to deeply mislead you. Other pieces of data readily available to us reveal the sleight of hand.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#93

Post by caconym_ »

infamouscow wrote: post #7
dalbaugh wrote: post #5

Unfortunately, I don't think any additional evidence will convince vaccine skeptics of the safety of mRNA vaccines

[flagged]

People who believe in baseless conspiracy theories have to convince themselves that people who don't are operating in the same epistemic mode, picking and choosing what to believe in order to reinforce their prior beliefs, because the alternative is admitting that those people are operating in a superior epistemic mode where they base their beliefs on most or all of the available evidence (including, in this case, the fact that the """vaxxed""" people they know are all still upright and apparently unharmed after years of predictions to the contrary).

Your comment is a manifestation of this defense mechanism. As real evidence piles up that you've been wrong, you retreat into these bizarre imaginary scenarios in which you've been right the whole time, and by projecting that scenario onto others you imagine yourself vindicated. But the rest of us just think you're nuts.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#94

Post by zosima »

This is rather weird. Mortality in immediate connection with the vaccine (index time) would not have been captured here. I would hesitate to draw any conclusion from this paper.

> For all individuals, vaccinated or not, follow-up time zero began 6 months after the index date.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#95

Post by carbocation »

andreygrehov wrote: post #88
wnevets wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RFK Jr's FDA is imposing stricter vaccine protocols due to children deaths linked to Covid-19 vaccine-related myocarditis.

Are they lying about the deaths? I'm not following.

VAERS cannot be used to establish causality; it cannot correctly be used in the way in which they are purporting to use it[1].

1 = https://www.kff.org/quick-take/fda-memo-linking-covid-vaccin...

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#96

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

technothrasher wrote: post #14
infamouscow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> would you behave any different than a skeptic? It is unclear what you mean by "skeptic"? Are you speaking of rational skepticism, or reactionary denial?

What if only the second type exists, but they always claim to be the first?

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#97

Post by ceejayoz »

hervature wrote: post #89
ceejayoz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, it's an important point. "It made COVID things much better, and it didn't make other unrelated things worse."

Looking at Table 2 and as the name suggests, COVID is included in "all-cause" mortality. Your statement does not follow because it could have made COVID outcomes better yet "all-other" causes worse for a neutral "no increase in all-cause". If you look at Table 2, you can see that the vaccinated group is less mortality in all diseases. That being said, as much as I think this is over-stated, this is very much a correl…

Read again.

> After standardizing the characteristics of vaccinated individuals to those of unvaccinated individuals, we observed a 25% lower standardized incidence of all-cause death in vaccinated individuals compared with unvaccinated ones…

> Vaccinated individuals had a lower risk of death compared with unvaccinated individuals regardless of the cause of death.

> All-cause mortality was lower within 6 months following COVID-19 vaccination, regardless of the dose administered, compared with the control periods...

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#98

Post by DebtDeflation »

zosima wrote: post #61
eddieroger wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frame it as the safety of the vaccine, not the efficacy of it. If it was about efficacy, it would lead with the 25% lower risk because of COVID safety. But, these days, there are people who think vaccines are dangerous just because, so saying that taking the vaccine or not has equal mortality puts that to rest (or at least does for those who find science real).

The reduction in all-cause mortality was independent of covid deaths. Which seems to suggest that there was big differences between the groups other than the vaccination. This of course does not change that the vaccine seems mostly safe, but it definitely calls in to question whether the protection against covid death was vaccine-mediated or due to some other difference between the groups. Therefore this paper is mod…

A 25% reduction is huge, even if you account for the fact that people who get vaccines tend to be more health conscious to begin with, when you consider that outside of the very sick and very old Covid has a mortality rate under 1%.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#99

Post by rob_c »

arnoooooo wrote: post #9
llmslave wrote: post #8

Vaccines benefit the population, at the expense of the individual

This study demonstrates that it benefits the individual (and therefore the population).

Explain how? there is a right answer but you'll probably not get it by relying exclusively on the reported data.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#100

Post by jmye »

blindriver wrote: post #47
sa-code wrote: post #4

> no increased risk of all-cause mortality > study including 22.7 million vaccinated individuals and 5.9 million unvaccinated individuals These are the important bits for the non medical folks

They define unvaccinated as anyone who wasn't vaccinated by Nov 2021. What if they got vaccinated afterwards?

What specific impact do you think that would have on this study? Do you think vaccines prior to Nov-2021 were safe and they were unsafe after? Do you think short term results, captured after Nov-2021 are more relevant than inclusive results prior?
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