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The web runs on tolerance

shkspr.mobi

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Re: The web runs on tolerance

#91

Post by lambertsimnel »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #74
tclancy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> technical issues and social issues really don't mix I don’t think that’s true in the least. I think it’s true there are no technical solutions to social problems, but any and all technology comes from people forming societies and seeking solutions. This comment feels the same as people saying “Stick to sports” about athletes talking politics. Everything is political. If you don’t think something is, it tends to be…

> Everything is political This is such a tedious worldview Maybe everything is political, but it doesn't have to be that way

I wonder whether people who disagree about this are talking at crossed purposes. I think there's politics in a narrower sense (concerning partisanship and state intervention) and politics in a wider sense (concerning power relations and decision making). To depoliticise things in the former sense (by depolarising and deregulating) isn't to depoliticise them at all in the latter sense. In society, arguably everything is economic, legal, psychological, etc. Presumably, what people mean when they say "everything is political" is that politics in the wider sense is both important and on this list.

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#92

Post by 47282847 »

didgetmaster wrote: post #7

This guy lost me when he started talking about diversity issues instead of tech. I couldn't care less about the race, gender, or sexual orientation of the person(s) who created the hardware or software that I use. Does it work? Is it easy to understand and use? These are the things I am interested in. I am reminded of an early cartoon of a dog sitting at a computer saying 'On the Internet, no one knows you are a dog!…

> I couldn't care less

You do care, otherwise you would not even have thought about it twice, let alone comment.

The most striking argument against this line of reasoning is that there is no possibility for you not to act politically. By ignoring the issue of systemic discrimination (“don’t care don’t personally discriminate”) you actively contribute to and participate in the systemic discrimination.

It’s a choice, and I find it important to leave you the choice, as I do not believe forcing anything on you will actually make you see, but it is true nonetheless that you cannot escape your responsibility: The ability to respond. “You can not not communicate.” Not responding and deciding to remain ignorant about it is also a response, and a highly privileged one.

It would be easy to at least passively support anyone’s attempt at trying to reduce systemic discrimination, but speaking out against it turns it even more into a political act supporting discrimination than doing nothing and by that delegating it to others.

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#93

Post by vladvasiliu »

47282847 wrote: post #92
didgetmaster wrote: post #7

This guy lost me when he started talking about diversity issues instead of tech. I couldn't care less about the race, gender, or sexual orientation of the person(s) who created the hardware or software that I use. Does it work? Is it easy to understand and use? These are the things I am interested in. I am reminded of an early cartoon of a dog sitting at a computer saying 'On the Internet, no one knows you are a dog!…

> I couldn't care less You do care , otherwise you would not even have thought about it twice, let alone comment. The most striking argument against this line of reasoning is that there is no possibility for you not to act politically. By ignoring the issue of systemic discrimination (“don’t care don’t personally discriminate”) you actively contribute to and participate in the systemic discrimination. It’s a choice,…

I have a hard time following this line of reasoning. I don't think GP's point is to "ignore systemic discrimination". Rather, it is to ignore those things on which people are discriminated. How can you discriminate against, say, race, if you don't pay attention to the person's race?

Specifically, for tech, if you happen upon a code written by someone called "didgetmaster" on github, and the author makes no comment about who they are as a person, how does this contribute to discrimination? Isn't this the whole point of anonymous resumes and such to fight discrimination against minorities for employment?

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#94

Post by chrismorgan »

ktpsns wrote: post #3

The older ones among us remember when XML took over the world and everyone was supposed to use strict XHTML. It turned out that the strength of the HTML ecosystem was its fault tolerance. HTML4 was the "sloppy" answer to XHTML. It brought HTML back from a data language to a markup language. Every Markdown parser is similarly fault-tolerant as HTML parsers. However, CSS and JS are not error-tolerant. A syntax error in…

> CSS [is] not error-tolerant. A syntax error in a CSS rule causes it to be ignored.

That is error-tolerant, in basically the same way HTML is.

> An unhandled JavaScript exception is a hard stop.

A more appropriate example here is that a JS syntax error stops the entire script from running. That’s the XML parser approach.

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#95

Post by nicbou »

wredcoll wrote: post #34
whycombinetor wrote: post #13

What a bizarre bait and switch. Starts talking about browsers allowing malformed HTML and uses that to draw conclusions about allowing certain types of people.

My god, and we thought those english teachers were idiots when they insisted we should learn things like reading comprehension and metaphors.

I understand what the author is trying to say, and I agree with the second half of the text, but the link between both halves is tenuous at best.

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#96

Post by SPICLK2 »

47282847 wrote: post #92
didgetmaster wrote: post #7

This guy lost me when he started talking about diversity issues instead of tech. I couldn't care less about the race, gender, or sexual orientation of the person(s) who created the hardware or software that I use. Does it work? Is it easy to understand and use? These are the things I am interested in. I am reminded of an early cartoon of a dog sitting at a computer saying 'On the Internet, no one knows you are a dog!…

> I couldn't care less You do care , otherwise you would not even have thought about it twice, let alone comment. The most striking argument against this line of reasoning is that there is no possibility for you not to act politically. By ignoring the issue of systemic discrimination (“don’t care don’t personally discriminate”) you actively contribute to and participate in the systemic discrimination. It’s a choice,…

As a person, treating everyone the same is an excellent response (and even a political one, if you wish) to counteract a system of discrimination.

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#97

Post by nicbou »

Mathnerd314 wrote: post #4

But in contrast, web communities run on moderation, i.e. a sort of intolerance of bad content. The lesson is that technical issues and social issues really don't mix. You can't conclude anything from one versus the other. Case in point, cryptocurrency was supposed to be the anarchist's dream, but now it's being adopted by some central banks.

Not an intolerance of bad content, but an intolerance of bad behaviour.

Technical issues are often social issues: bad process, bad incentives, bad faith. Moderation is a social issue that people constantly fail to solve with technology, because there are rarely technological solutions to social problems. At best you can mitigate the issue with technology.

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#98

Post by Incipient »

dang wrote: post #57
Incipient wrote: post #47

This whole article has, to be ragebait - surely? It's such a inane piece of writing, the world needs to give less time to anyone that genuinely holds these views. They're entitled to hold them, but they're still wrong. >It had an intolerant ideology. Without going into the various reasons why its trash, conforming to a spec is not intolerance, it's success. Imagine the Brooklyn bridge design committee saying "requiri…

This comment breaks HN's guidelines in many ways. Can you please review them and stick to the rules? We're trying for something quite different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html p.s. If you meant your comment as an amusing meta play on intolerance, then I'm sorry for misreading. That would of course be much better, but after a bit of wavering I concluded that you actually meant what you were sayi…

Apologies, guidelines noted. Upom reread of my comment, it was less constructive than intended.

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#99

Post by nicbou »

echelon wrote: post #30
Mathnerd314 wrote: post #4

But in contrast, web communities run on moderation, i.e. a sort of intolerance of bad content. The lesson is that technical issues and social issues really don't mix. You can't conclude anything from one versus the other. Case in point, cryptocurrency was supposed to be the anarchist's dream, but now it's being adopted by some central banks.

The internet I grew up on barely had any moderation at all. Or polarization. Or algorithms that feed on that polarization. I grew up in a conservative, religious family. The internet, forums, and IRC exposed me to lots of ideas outside my upbringing and helped shape who I am today. I was already starting to really dig biology, science, and evolution as a teenager. Early internet culture helped tip the scale. I'm now…

I think that censorship grew because the internet did.

When the crowd grows bigger, it becomes a market. Then you get people who are only here out of self interest, and you need rules to deal with them.

When the crowd gets too big, the conversation is too loud and fast to be polite, and the loudmouths take over. Only hot takes anger people enough to speak above the miasma.

I don’t think it’s a red versus blue issue because there exist people outside of the United States. About 8 billion of them.

Re: The web runs on tolerance

#100

Post by 47282847 »

SPICLK2 wrote: post #96
47282847 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I couldn't care less You do care , otherwise you would not even have thought about it twice, let alone comment. The most striking argument against this line of reasoning is that there is no possibility for you not to act politically. By ignoring the issue of systemic discrimination (“don’t care don’t personally discriminate”) you actively contribute to and participate in the systemic discrimination. It’s a choice,…

As a person, treating everyone the same is an excellent response (and even a political one, if you wish) to counteract a system of discrimination.

Agreed.

To illustrate, say you live inside a fenced-off city. You say you don’t discriminate, anyone is welcome to come and talk to and trade with you. Somebody points out that there are people outside the city, behind the fence, that aren’t able to come talk to you. You are free to act or not act on that, but speaking out against the one that merely points it out and tries to change it means you take an active position to support the current discriminatory situation, rather than a passive, opportunistic one that supports whatever the political situation happens to be.

All positions are valid positions to take. They do however reflect an active choice and an active act. All of them are political. All of them come from a position of privilege, being inside the city, not outside.

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