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Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

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Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#91

Post by bakugo »

soloridindan wrote: post #29
brettermeier wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, this only solves the cheat problem to a minimal extent. There is a lot of important data that players should not be directly aware of, but which is important for the game. For example, it is important for calculating sounds to know where enemies are nearby, even though you cannot see them, which makes wall hacks possible, etc.

Sounds are core to shooters and very much within the expected abilities of the players to hear them. If anything, I'd incorporate this kind of indicator in the game itself, allowing for deaf people to "hear" footsteps as well

> I'd incorporate this kind of indicator in the game itself, allowing for deaf people to "hear" footsteps as well

That's just discount wallhacks. Fortnite has it and you're basically forced to use it even if you have no hearing issues, because it provides a massive advantage.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#92

Post by Almondsetat »

riddley wrote: post #90
Almondsetat wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is: the Switch has a clear ToS, and if the user breaks it they can get into trouble. OTOH, if you release your game in Linux... that's it

The games have ToS though right?

The Switch is a closed proprietary platform, so Nintendo can give some guarantees, and if the user does something at the Switch level, the responsibility of legal action will be on Nintendo, saving up headaches to the publisher.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#93

Post by tgv »

mrob wrote: post #51
63stack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to make anticheat that can't be bypassed, regardless of OS. All of the anticheat games today have cheaters.

Correct. E.g. you can aimbot by routing the video signal to a capture card on a separate computer and run image recognition software to generate mouse movements spoofed at the hardware level. The only way to reliably prevent cheating is with in-person tournaments played on hardware provided by the organizers.

As someone said about the lack of a Switch anti-cheat: it's a numbers game. If cheating is as easy as downloading a .exe for a few $$$, you're going to find cheaters everywhere. If it requires a complex, and/or fairly expensive setup, the number is going to be very low.

That's assuming there's no money in being a cheater.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#94

Post by Thaxll »

soloridindan wrote: post #8
hastily3114 wrote: post #4

Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.

I think the moment you accept data from the client as truth you've lost the battle already, everything else is just damage control. Loads of games have realized this and kept checking game rules on the serverside and reveal data on a need-to-know basis. This makes it nearly impossible for cheats to be made because anything you know you should know, and everythin you act is parsed by the backend according to rules alr…

This is not how it works, most games that take cheating seriously already have a gameserver where most of the gameplay logic happen.

Doing everything server side does prevent cheating.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#95

Post by 360MustangScope »

JustFinishedBSG wrote: post #68
hastily3114 wrote: post #4

Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.

There’s just no way to stop cheating client side despite what devs love to think. But server side anti cheat is much harder and requires more work; it’s much simpler to just install spyware / rootkits on the client and call it a day.

You can’t prevent wall hacks with only server side anti cheat. The client needs that data locally before the enemy is rendered on screen.

As mentioned in another comment, you can’t do this on the server without expensive checks for every single player that is always checking line of sight, because it’s not just your session running on a single server but multiple sessions.

And let’s say you did this, now you have a latency problem because most modern games to make them feel fluid has client side prediction with server reconciliation. This is what makes your modern games feel more responsive, if you put a constant server check there you have lost this.

No matter what people say online, it isn’t just move all of it to the server, there is data the client needs to know and can’t be spoonfed by the server.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#96

Post by zeta0134 »

360MustangScope wrote: post #88
63stack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to make anticheat that can't be bypassed, regardless of OS. All of the anticheat games today have cheaters.

It doesn’t have to be 100%. The point is to make it inconvenient. The majority of people will not do it if it is inconvenient. Thats the point to many things in life that you just make it more difficult and most people won’t be bothered to attempt to circumvent whatever it is. There will still be circumventers but it is will be less than if you just said fuck it.

Sure. That also means it doesn't have to be kernel-level rootkits that fundamentally break the security model of my operating system and risk my bank account. Most people will be stopped by userland anticheat, right? It's inconvenient. So ... put it *there.*

And if someone does the kernel bypass thing, well, rely on server-side heuristics (which are imperfect, but also unknowable to the attacker) and you'll discourage enough of that with account bans.

Helpfully eSports players tend to have video captures of their gameplay, and most of these "undetectable" cheats are real obvious if you actually watch the footage. That catches most of the serious stuff at the upper level. It's why video verification has been a thing in the speedrunning scene for such a long time.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#97

Post by hiccuphippo »

__alexs wrote: post #34

It's funny that game makers make a fuss about anti-cheat not working on Linux but then publish Switch versions of their games. That platform has almost zero security and is commonly emulated with cheats even in multiplayer these days.

If people cheat in the switch, they can blame Nintendo. If people cheat in PC, they can blame the anticheat. Without anticheat, they have to take the blame.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#98

Post by mcv »

hastily3114 wrote: post #4

Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.

Reliable anticheat is serverside. Clientside anticheat sounds like a fool's errand to me. You need to control the client, so that means the user cannot be in control of their own computer, which is contrary to the idea of Linux.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#99

Post by tete »

hastily3114 wrote: post #4

Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.

You are looking completely wrong at this. There is no anti-cheat that cannot be bypassed. Period.

You can always run things in a VM, you can always replace your keyboard and mouse with a different device, you can always have your a camera instead of human eyes and have something that recognizes enemies.

Even cheat detection in the real physical world (sports, chess, etc.) is not a completely solved topic.

You can connect computers to other computers so other computers will always be able to control them.

The idea that any (currently realistic) cheat prevention is unbypassable is silly.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#100

Post by super256 »

silvanocerza wrote: post #72
Jhsto wrote: post #71

Cheats aside, are there any competitive games that include Uber-like rating system? Meaning that you'd need to provide feedback whether you'd play with your opponents/teammates again after a game.

Dota 2 comes to mind, they have the commend system. If I remember correctly they added something like this to CS: GO too.

Pretty sure the commendation system in CS is just for looks, as it can be easily gamed.
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