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EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

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Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#91

Misleading title, the council approves their mandate for negotiations with parliament. It’s still a long way to go before it turns into law and I think it’s rather unpopular in parliament.

Terrorists are winning. If husband wanted to control wife's phone, read all messages, that is jail time in many countries. But if bureaucrats in nice suits want to abuse Europeans all at once, then it is fine.

Germany get you s*t together and issue arrest warrants for this lot. They seem to be breaking German laws.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#92
post #46

>At the beginning of the month, the Danish Presidency decided to change its approach with a new compromise text that makes the chat scanning voluntary, instead. Hmm, so this will probably make the life for those who don't scan quite hard and if they experience a high profile scandal getting out of it will not be easy I assume. I'm not sure what to think of it, not being mandatory and requiring risk assessment sounds…

you people need to disabuse yourselves of the idea that only a Trumpian type regime could possibly have any interest in finding and incapacitating “enemies of the state”.

Of course but Trump is a really good cautionary tale

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#93

Honest question. The EU was created as an economic and trade institution. How has it morphed into a wierd political institution, which NATO was already supposed to be? The root question: how did an organization that ushered in things like the Euro become a body that decides whether Europeans are allowed to have personal privacy?

>How has it morphed into a wierd political institution Von der Leyen, an autocratic fascist that is ruining this continent. She failed to push her agenda in Germany so she "failed upwards". Even how she got this position was highly controversial and went against the top candidate principle. The EU commission is exceeding their competencies. The EU is not democratic, there is no parliamentary oversight, the parliament…

All of this is disinformation and propaganda.

There is parliamentary oversight, it's literally the next step in the process.

We all voted for the EU commission through our respective elections for national governments, who appoint the comission.

You could not be jailed for this comment, though sometimes I wish you could. Information warfare is real.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#94
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a mere Federalization should happen. I think a unitary state is - as you said! - what we all signed up for and what we should get. There's a reason the "ever closer" phrasing has been repeated over and over again - in the 1983 Solemn Declaration, the 1997 Maastricht Treaty, the 2009 Lisbon treaty etc etc. Look at China's rise and our fall - a direct consequence of centralization and the lack thereof.

> what we all signed up for No, we didn't. The EU ignored the French and Dutch people's votes.

What are you even talking about

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason indeed - unbridled utopianism that will eventually sink us. In practice, the only political party that openly advocates for a European Federation, Volt, is polling around statistical error from zero in most EU countries. The will of the people isn't there. Becoming a federation or even a unitary state isn't a self-executing protocol. Actual heads of governments have to meet, agree to dissolve their…

> The will of the people isn't there The will of the people never mattered. All that matters is ideology and force to execute on it. > Becoming more like China is not particularly attractive for former Eastern Bloc countries Yeah, what's attractive for former Eastern Block countries is mooching off Western Europe, taking our money and then blocking any progress and electing regressive autocrats. In some ways, it was…

"The will of the people never mattered. All that matters is ideology and force to execute on it."

OK, hence your admiration of China. Now I understand.

"Yeah, what's attractive for former Eastern Block countries is mooching off Western Europe, taking our money"

As of now, places like Germany are stagnating so much that they are called "the sick man of Europe" again, while places like Poland show enormous economic upswing. You can lie to yourself that this is caused by "taking our money", but what really kills growth in the West is bureaucracy running amok + deep anti-growth mindset of the Green part of the political spectrum. Which is negligible here, and which is both a self-inflicted wound in the West.

"and then blocking any progress"

How dare those uppity Slavs have any ideas that conflict with our better wisdom, right?

I will tell you where this sea change began: in the "wir schaffen das" autumn of 2015. That is when the eastern half of the EU found out that Western elites are suicidal or, at best, totally unrealistic, and that we cannot simply follow them into their abyss of stupidity.

Ten years later, only fanatics will call the Wilkommenskultur a success. We were right, you were wrong, and you have to live with the consequences.

"and electing regressive autocrats".

Says Austria, which elected a Nazi president (Kurt Waldheim) and introduced the FPÖ into its federal government already in the 20th century? I still remember the boycotts that resulted from that move.

"In some ways, it was better when you were one of our (Austrian) colonies."

Neither Czech lands, nor Slovenia, Galicia etc. were, in any sense, Austrian colonies. It was an amalgamation of old medieval kingdoms under one ruling house. As citizens of the old empire, we were all equal under the law - not a colonial situation where the natives are usually second-class people.

"At least we managed to drag you into modernity against your will."

Half of the people who dragged Austria-Hungary into modernity were Jewish intellectuals and businesspeople who were then massacred by German nationalists in one of the greatest crimes of history, and Austria was a massive hotbed of anti-Semitism since the era of Georg von Schönerer and Karl Lüger. Not to mention a certain unsuccessful painter on the top of it.

So thanks for precisely nothing. The worst of the rot started in Vienna, which even had the gall to call a neighboring capital "Judapest".

But you have shown your colors pretty well. Force, ideology, subjugation, agree with us or else. Fortunately modern Austria or Europe isn't really made for people like you anymore. Still a surprise to meet someone like you here on Hacker News.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The will of the people isn't there The will of the people never mattered. All that matters is ideology and force to execute on it. > Becoming more like China is not particularly attractive for former Eastern Bloc countries Yeah, what's attractive for former Eastern Block countries is mooching off Western Europe, taking our money and then blocking any progress and electing regressive autocrats. In some ways, it was…

"The will of the people never mattered. All that matters is ideology and force to execute on it." OK, hence your admiration of China. Now I understand. "Yeah, what's attractive for former Eastern Block countries is mooching off Western Europe, taking our money" As of now, places like Germany are stagnating so much that they are called "the sick man of Europe" again, while places like Poland show enormous economic ups…

> How dare those uppity Slavs have any ideas that conflict with our better wisdom, right?

I am an uppity Slav myself, brate.

> Neither Czech lands, nor Slovenia, Galicia etc. were, in any sense, Austrian colonies. It was an amalgamation of old medieval kingdoms under one ruling house. As citizens of the old empire, we were all equal under the law - not a colonial situation where the natives are usually second-class people.

Sure, just like in the Soviet Union ;)

> Half of the people who dragged Austria-Hungary into modernity were Jewish intellectuals and businesspeople who were then massacred by German nationalists in one of the greatest crimes of history.

Thank you for proving my point that nationalism is a poison to be overcome - by finally getting rid of our little tribal chiefdoms and creating a unitary state not defined by national identity.

> Force, ideology, subjugation, agree with us or else. Fortunately modern Austria or Europe isn't really made for people like you anymore. Still a surprise to meet someone like you here on Hacker News.

This is the way the world works, like it or not. The reason Europe has been doing poorly lately is because of deluded utopists thinking it isn't. It's the way the US operates. It's the way China operates. Only we in Europe think we're special little snowflakes and better than everyone else.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#97
post #20

Honest question. The EU was created as an economic and trade institution. How has it morphed into a wierd political institution, which NATO was already supposed to be? The root question: how did an organization that ushered in things like the Euro become a body that decides whether Europeans are allowed to have personal privacy?

ever closer union in the Treaty of Rome the entire point is to build a country called Europe and the EU is built on the "Monnet method", where it slowly ratchets forward taking more power from national parliaments and giving it to the EU council/commission (with a useless parliament there to make it appear democratic) the UK leaving is the only example of the ratchet being reversed

The useless parliament that’s stopped this legislation twice?

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#98
post #59
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume this is a delay to get a foot in the door. After some time, the scanning will be made no longer voluntary. One has to take rights away slowly, otherwise the frog jumps before you can boil it.

While I fully agree with your sentiment, I'd like to take the opportunity to share a favorite fun-fact of mine: the frogs in the not-jumping-out experiment had their brains removed beforehand. Which might make the analogy more apt, actually, considering how much under siege our attention is these days.

Really? So "boiling the frog" saying should really mean "peripheral reflexes does not react to slow changes"?

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#99
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what we all signed up for No, we didn't. The EU ignored the French and Dutch people's votes.

What are you even talking about

I suspect the elected French parliament ignoring the “no to eu constitution vote” in 2005

Not sure how the EU is blamed for the sovereign actions of the French Parliament.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you even talking about

I suspect the elected French parliament ignoring the “no to eu constitution vote” in 2005 Not sure how the EU is blamed for the sovereign actions of the French Parliament.

Or how that is in any way related to the other several instances of "ever closer union" wording that France signed up to.
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