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A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

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Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#91
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. I'm not talking about technical advances. How about abolishing slavery? A representative government? Right to a fair trial? > I don't know why we worry about historical bad deeds, and seek reparations from people's descendents. The idea is that some things are just bad and can't be excused by mere history. It doesn't mean that we should automatically pay reparations, but it DOES mean that pretty much all histor…

Much the same applies to moral advances, like other ideas they're produced by the zeitgeist rather than "made from whole cloth". So it's a valid defense to say that they didn't know any better. What purpose does considering them tainted serve? They're bad by modern standards, yes, and good by historical standards, and we ourselves are bad by future standards. So what is this even about, something to do with level of…

I'm on the side of "some kings deserve credit", but I think:

>Much the same applies to moral advances, like other ideas they're produced by the zeitgeist rather than "made from whole cloth".

is a rather weak argument. Moral advances actually are "made from whole cloth". Morality is objective[1] and can be reasoned from first principles. For example, murder. Murder is not wrong because Yahweh says so. Murder is wrong because the murderer stands to gain virtually nothing, while the murdered loses everything. This discrepancy in gain vs. loss results in a massively net negative impact to society and is therefore objectively bad. However, there are other scenarios where killing someone results in a net positive (or at least less negative than the alternative) to society, for example self-defense against a criminal would-be murderer, and these cases we understand to not be murder.

People have been capable of complex reasoning for as long as we have history. Our predecessors had less information than us available to them, but they still had the same capacity for intelligence and there are plenty of examples of impressive reasoning performed by people thousands of years ago.

So talking about, say, slavery, particularly the exceptionally vile race-based slavery practiced by Americans... it did not take a zeitgeist to understand it was bad. Plenty of people were capable of reasoning about the absolute hypocrisy of the slave-owning founding fathers proclaiming all men born equal from the day America proclaimed its independence. The zeitgeist that ended slavery in America was enough people feeling compelled to take action rather than let the status quo be; even if you understand slavery is bad, it's easier to simply selfishly benefit from it, or even if you don't benefit from it, doing nothing is yet still awfully more appealing than fighting and dying in a civil war over it.

Under that lens, I will absolutely judge historical figures. The slave-owning founding fathers, for instance, are scum who should not be revered. They especially had the education and the experience of perceived tyranny, yet maintained and benefitted from a system they were perfectly capable of reasoning to be worse than the one they revolted against. In fact, they manufactured their own zeitgeist from scratch. If they had wanted to, they certainly could have made the abolition of slavery part of it.

[1] Stating "morality is objective" can come across as arrogant (it may be read as "my moral perspective is the objectively correct one"), so I want to elaborate a bit in a digression. Morality is objective, but not necessarily easy. There are many complex situations, reasoning is actually often quite challenging, and lack of information can confound attempts at reasoning. There are many cases where if you asked me if something was moral, my answer would be "I don't know" rather than baselessly asserting one way as objectively correct. However, many cases like the morality of race-based slavery are trivially easy to reason about, and we have a rich historical record of writing produced by people hundreds of years ago preserved showing they were capable of conducting this reasoning with the information available to them long before the zeitgeist that compelled action to end it.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#92
post #90
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk was born in South Africa to a wealthy diamond mine owner (Dad) and Canadian model+dietician (Mom), and is a ‘confirmed non believer’ per his own public statements. His whole family seems not particularly religious. The extended musk family is from all over, however, including Canada, England, American, etc. but he seems pretty clearly a mongrel.

That's as WASPy as WASPy gets. It's not important that the specimen is an active Protestant. The point is that their ancestry (with some decent adjacency to: white, anglo-saxon, protestant) landed them in a place of general privilege. Musk is a WASP by any definition. But it's always been a pejorative, and always used as a cudgel. Musk is not responsible for his ancestry. But he certainly benefited from it.

Bwahaha. So not Anglo-Saxon. Not Protestant. But somehow he is. But white.

How is this not just blatant racism again?

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#93
post #88
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the only actual applicability I can see in its usage is just racism.

Your point is kind of boring though. If OP had asked "why do white people hold most of the wealth in the US", the answer would be the same: Because they arrived (first) with superior technology and made slaves or serfs (or corpses) out of the indigenous population, and seized the indigenous de facto "ownership" (or at least possession, as de jure is contextually meaningless) of vast natural resources which had previo…

My white grandparents were poor Norwegian farmers that immigrated to North Dakota.

They benefitted about as much from what you’re describing as a modern day Nigerian immigrant was punished by it.

This is why racism is stupid and boring, because it tells you nothing useful. It’s a pointlessly broad brush to vilify or prop up someone.

Which is exactly why racism is stupid and bad. And why WASP as it is being used in this thread is self-contradictory and doesn’t even mean anything concrete except ‘white’, as has been demonstated with the various replies.

All this does is just prop up the Nazi types who can point to this kind of stupidity and go ‘see, this is why it’s good we fight back - white power’.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#94
post #29
post #10

In the debate between self made and team effort my opinion is “both.” Nobody starts from zero. Everyone builds on the work of others with help from others. At the same time, individuals can make unique contributions and are not just interchangeable parts. You see this over and over again in art, music, engineering, science, literature, etc., or really anything requiring skill. People aren’t interchangeable. I think b…

> The “great man” theory leads to the idea that 99.999% of humans are mediocre at best and we all exist to serve a tiny number of greats I feel this take says more about the person saying it then it does about the great men theorists. Believing that revolutions often happen due to a few individuals does not mean that you believe most people are there to serve anyone. That's a non sequitur

I think you missed OP's point. "Leads to" is the key phrase, and they're talking about how both ("Great Man" and "Inevitable Forces") theories end up being used as propaganda to support political purposes. Both (as you point out) have some truth to them, and (as you do) can be addressed objectively, but both can be transmuted into ideology,

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#95
post #2

Excellent essay Few myths in our society are as dangerous and as anti-social as the “self made man”. No one is self made and all achievements are the result of groups of people working together.

While that may be true, there are people that move the needle more than others.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#96
post #93
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is kind of boring though. If OP had asked "why do white people hold most of the wealth in the US", the answer would be the same: Because they arrived (first) with superior technology and made slaves or serfs (or corpses) out of the indigenous population, and seized the indigenous de facto "ownership" (or at least possession, as de jure is contextually meaningless) of vast natural resources which had previo…

My white grandparents were poor Norwegian farmers that immigrated to North Dakota. They benefitted about as much from what you’re describing as a modern day Nigerian immigrant was punished by it. This is why racism is stupid and boring, because it tells you nothing useful. It’s a pointlessly broad brush to vilify or prop up someone. Which is exactly why racism is stupid and bad. And why WASP as it is being used in th…

You appear to be on some kind of crusade here. I don't understand it, or your goals or intentions.

We can agree that racism is stupid and boring. But it's still real, and has had a great deal of influence.

If you think I'm propping up Nazis by acknowledging that "WASP" and general white privilege exist, then well, all I can say is that we live on different comprehensive planets.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#97
post #96
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My white grandparents were poor Norwegian farmers that immigrated to North Dakota. They benefitted about as much from what you’re describing as a modern day Nigerian immigrant was punished by it. This is why racism is stupid and boring, because it tells you nothing useful. It’s a pointlessly broad brush to vilify or prop up someone. Which is exactly why racism is stupid and bad. And why WASP as it is being used in th…

You appear to be on some kind of crusade here. I don't understand it, or your goals or intentions. We can agree that racism is stupid and boring. But it's still real, and has had a great deal of influence. If you think I'm propping up Nazis by acknowledging that "WASP" and general white privilege exist , then well, all I can say is that we live on different comprehensive planets.

So let me recap.

Your plan here is to lump a bunch of people together by skin color (but with labels theoretically only tangentially related to skin color), and blame them for a bunch of stuff most don’t really benefit from - near as I can tell, for instance, Musk made his fortune by having rich parents and being a manipulative asshole, and being white only helped a little bit - and you don’t expect a portion of them to lose their minds and fight back.

And those people, by your assertion, have most of the guns, power, and money.

How do you think that is going to work out? Do you think it is helping to calm anything down, or result in a more reasonable outcome?

And do you think that regardless of the size or quantity of bodies fed into the resulting meat grinder that Musk would suffer one bit for it, for example?

Or is this not actually helping him? By turning idiots to his side?

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#98
post #92
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's as WASPy as WASPy gets. It's not important that the specimen is an active Protestant. The point is that their ancestry (with some decent adjacency to: white, anglo-saxon, protestant) landed them in a place of general privilege. Musk is a WASP by any definition. But it's always been a pejorative, and always used as a cudgel. Musk is not responsible for his ancestry. But he certainly benefited from it.

Bwahaha. So not Anglo-Saxon. Not Protestant. But somehow he is. But white. How is this not just blatant racism again?

WASP was always a pejorative way of saying "established white European-ancestry American aristocracy".

It never applied to poor white people. It is just a label for the most common and most established phenotype in early America, up to and including the mid-20th century.

The label has lost salience over the intervening decades, but it has not faded down to be lost in the ambient level of population wealth and power.

What's your point here?

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#99
post #97
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You appear to be on some kind of crusade here. I don't understand it, or your goals or intentions. We can agree that racism is stupid and boring. But it's still real, and has had a great deal of influence. If you think I'm propping up Nazis by acknowledging that "WASP" and general white privilege exist , then well, all I can say is that we live on different comprehensive planets.

So let me recap. Your plan here is to lump a bunch of people together by skin color (but with labels theoretically only tangentially related to skin color), and blame them for a bunch of stuff most don’t really benefit from - near as I can tell, for instance, Musk made his fortune by having rich parents and being a manipulative asshole, and being white only helped a little bit - and you don’t expect a portion of them…

I have no plan. I didn't create the label. And it's not a robustly defined sociological group anyway. It's just a popular label that got applied to real and very visible thing.

Musk was born in South Africa under apartheid. Do you think his life would not be very different if he was born with different skin?

Historically, yes, white males of (select) Euro descent have wielded disproportionate power in America. Do you disagree?!?

Your plan, then, is to hide from that obvious truth because some Nazi nitwits will be so stupid as to either a) use that historical fact as a basis for their belief of how things should be now, or b) use the fact that some people are still living the effects of that history, and their lack of enthusiasm for that fact, as reason to "fight back"?

Honestly I think either of those reactions would be to coddle the Nazis. No one is served by lying about history.

Some nitwits will always interpret history in a way that serves their purposes. But their purposes are more demanding than the facts that they use to support them, and they don't care. There will always be Nazis (or adherents to some similarly absurd and evil system with a different name). Their justification for their beliefs is the only thing that will change.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, facts make it necessarily both. But what does that mean? What is attribution? What is ownership? How does our legal framework work? How does the media speak about reality? The reason for "great men" isn't that its true, it's that that's how our society is structured. These ideas come from how our property is structured. If a person can own as much wealth as millions and the media is on their side; great men exis…

> If a person can own as much wealth as millions and the media is on their side; great men exist. Consider the alternatives to this. The first is that great works are being accomplished without anyone being in charge of them. People invent alternating current and land on the moon in a completely decentralized manner with no one leading the effort and no one making a larger contribution than anyone else. Not the thing…

What are you talking about?

I don't think authority is bad. What we're talking about isn't purely organizational, its economical. Of course we need leaders, and groups, and hierarchy. What we don't need is structures that take from peoples labor.

Hierarchy can be an abstraction of group decision making and not a relationship to the products of labor (as it is now).

Or do you think people will only do things if others own the products of their labor? Would it be impossible to exist as a society without a small group of people owning the products of millions of peoples labor?

Like I said with my original comment our current notion of great men is mostly a political fabrication by the rich. The rich being the people who own the media outlets we consume, the publishing houses, the internet, the people who own the vast majority of the things we need. They have the power to influence our morality through information culling, exposure and/or volume. Thus they have birthed the modern idea of "great men". "Great men" as they exist today are not great by us, they are great by them.

Do you think these forms that currently exist are the end form of human organization? These forms breed too many ills to be able to last forever, monetary corruption IS the real manifestation of these forms of human organization.

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