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Exploring the Fragmentation of Wayland, an xdotool adventure

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Re: Exploring the Fragmentation of Wayland, an xdotool adventure

#91
I am surprised, 87 comments and so far nobody has mentioned X11Libre.

They claim 30 developers right now. Don't know if true and if they are any good, but when the time comes to update my xserver, I will have a look at them - just to show my support.

Ah aeh, Wayland, it too got pitched to me recently. But I don't see it improves on any use case I have, but actively disables functionality I need. So a big no go and pass. Why should I change anything in my single-user distro - thank you.

Some of us thought to ourselves in the 90s, I don't have to use Windows. There is something called Linux. I remember installing SUSe from 5 1/4 floppies (A LOT of them) and configuring scanlines and hoping my CRT survives the first startx command. I gave no one authority to say what get's deprecated and what not to me. The only person who can do this I am myself.

I use Linux because of people back then as Linux Torvalds and today Jordan Sissel, who do the right thing out of passion and not expectation of financial or other reward. Just for themselves and then share it, because it might be useful for others too. It's not a 9 to 5 job to them.

People like Lennart Poettering or some other kids who want to coax me into accepting their toys are a reason for me to run away as fast as possible from such shenanigans. I survived editing the scan lines, I don't need software from IBM.

Regarding Wayland and GUIs: GUIs have been much worse than command line and batch environments for automation. xdotool is kind of the best we have (basically just creating macros like in an editor for the whole system), but neither X11 nor the applications are really designed for automation. AppleScript and d-bus all kind of never really worked out. What will happen now with text based gen-AI models, we will go back to good old text (plus speach) interfaces. We will just tell (e.g. in a text box) the AI what we want and they find a way to deliver whatever it is we asked for. Then finally the AI properly controls a web browser for us, but we don't need to see any of that.

Re: Exploring the Fragmentation of Wayland, an xdotool adventure

#92
post #59
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see me working on this stuff, but people keep complaining about this because instead of one thing that works but is a pain, we have two things that work but are a pain. It's pretty obvious that while Xorg works for a lot of people, it's not the way forward; but I think it's apparent that Wayland might not be either... although I think it's likely some will end up running a wayland server with Xwayland as th…

>This is a lot different than say OSS vs ALSA. ALSA is an absolute nightmare to work with infinitely worse than Wayland. At best 10% of it is ‘documented’ through Doxygen. For the rest the only reference is the source code. This is one reason applications don’t tend to support ALSA anymore.

It's easier to write documentation than to completely rewrite a subsystem.

Re: Exploring the Fragmentation of Wayland, an xdotool adventure

#93
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't particularly easier to make your own compositor either, as you now also have to bring your own window manager. What made the X architecture much more interesting is that it avoided coupling the window manger to the compositor. Hell: there even are multiple popular compositors for X, as they also managed to avoid coupling the compositor to the display server (which would be the one part of the system that you…

>What made the X architecture much more interesting is that it avoided coupling the window manger to the compositor This is the industry standard, putting the compositor and window manager in separate processes. Android separates SurfaceFlinger and WindowManagerService. iOS separates quartz compositor and springboard. Windows separates dwm and explore. MacOS separates WindowServer and Dock.

Dwm is both the compositor and window manager in Windows. It’s the same with WindowServer in macOS.

If you are talking about the shell or task switcher, then yeah your point stand with Gnome but KDE has kwin and plasmashell processes.

Re: Exploring the Fragmentation of Wayland, an xdotool adventure

#94

Yes the international keyboard support is pretty bad in both X and Wayland. For example, try using Left Shift to switch to layout 1 (while retaining its shift functionality) without patching Gnome. It's impossible. Or, try making a virtual on-screen keyboard that would send characters that are not in the layout (for example, Greek character with US keyboard layout). Again, you cannot do that, and it's difficult to un…

>try using Left Shift to switch to layout 1 (while retaining its shift functionality) without patching Gnome. It's impossible. It's certainly possible with X. Not sure about compatibility with Gnome, but then it's a Gnome's problem, not X's

It is possible if you write a custom program for that, but not by simply configuring X. If you configure Shift to switch layouts, you won't be able to use it as a modifier.

For comparison, in Windows you can use Ctrl+Shift or Alt+Shift to switch layouts and use shortcuts (like Ctrl+Shift+A) with these modifiers. In X, you cannot.

Re: Exploring the Fragmentation of Wayland, an xdotool adventure

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>try using Left Shift to switch to layout 1 (while retaining its shift functionality) without patching Gnome. It's impossible. It's certainly possible with X. Not sure about compatibility with Gnome, but then it's a Gnome's problem, not X's

It is possible if you write a custom program for that, but not by simply configuring X. If you configure Shift to switch layouts, you won't be able to use it as a modifier. For comparison, in Windows you can use Ctrl+Shift or Alt+Shift to switch layouts and use shortcuts (like Ctrl+Shift+A) with these modifiers. In X, you cannot.

"Custom program" is a bit too serious sounding wording for a 5 lines shell script.

>in Windows you can use [...] In X, you cannot.

Well, I can. What you probably mean is that in X you don't have a GUI for this. But X is text configurable/scriptable by design. GUI is a concern of an upper level software.

Re: Exploring the Fragmentation of Wayland, an xdotool adventure

#96
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for instance as a X11 user I don't want a compositor at all

(Same... I know people use them to get some pretty effects; but, they add a frame of latency I do not want and require lots of memory and assume acceleration I don't need.)

[deleted]

Re: Exploring the Fragmentation of Wayland, an xdotool adventure

#97
Wayland is fantastic, but it requires some external tools for some non-default (seemingly 'simple') utilization. Therein lies double work, devs scratching their itch in whatever programming language they prefer, sure. The most popular one isn't always the best. And all of that is the nature of the bazaar. But the way I regard it, the bazaar can make use of curators who make a cathedral and sell that (anyone can, in theory). In other words, this is a service problem.

I used ydotool [1] in Sway years ago, worked perfectly fine. Had to setup the permissions though, IIRC via some udev rule. There are also other tools which do something similar, each being slightly different and sometimes with different features or pros/cons. For example, there was this tool for just swapping buttons (wtype), one for reading the input and echoing what was being pressed (wev), and there is one doing that with a keyboard visual picture, too (wshowkeys). Basically, sircmpwn (author of Sway) wrote a lot of useful Wayland utils [2].

Then for running GUI apps remotely, there's Waypipe [3], and for running Android apps on Wayland there's Waydroid [4].

The beauty of all this, is that with Wayland you don't have to run QubesOS in order to have a somewhat secure desktop OS.

..but it did require some work to get all of this working. I already knew that the moment I went for Sway instead of Gnome or KDE.

Also, I believe the mobile Linux DE's each use Wayland, too. pmOS with say Phosh, Lomiri, Plasma Shell, you'd always be using Wayland. That all started with N9 MeeGo and SFOS, while the predecessor of N9 (N900) still used X.org.

[1] https://github.com/ReimuNotMoe/ydotool

[2] https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn

[3] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe

[4] https://waydro.id/

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