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GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

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Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#91

Post by jauntywundrkind »

szszrk wrote: post #30

Transition to Wayland opened so many user experience regressions. Many are solved today, or at least partially solved but... There is still no possibility to have proper remote sessions when using Wayland. On any Window Manager and any distro. It's such a shitshow when you go into details. Nothing works, including third party tools (like NoMachine) and I could find no real hope for actual solutions being designed. Th…

Kde's new Plasma Login Manager / Plasma Login (backend/frontend) have been coming along nicely (replacing sddm), and include remote login support. Just announced this past spring but very active. https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/a-roadmap-for-a-moder...

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#92

Post by tcbawo »

woleium wrote: post #75
wltr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used X when I started with Linux in my high school. When I finally stopped tolerating macOS almost a decade ago, I started with Wayland only, and never looked back. I even ditched Krita in favour of Gimp, solely because Gimp supports Wayland (from version 3, and on 2.99 before that). To this day, I don’t understand X, like at all. It’s all some super complicated pile to me. While I don’t understand Wayland either,…

Remember x11 was initially a client server model, where multiple clients could access a single x11 server. This brought a lot of complexity we don’t use these days

For certain jobs, I've done development for Linux while also having a Windows box for other things. Opening Linux GUI apps remotely on my Windows desktop is nice and allows me to consolidate my displays. This is an edge case, for sure. How well does Wayland support this?

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#93

Post by palmotea »

woleium wrote: post #75
wltr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used X when I started with Linux in my high school. When I finally stopped tolerating macOS almost a decade ago, I started with Wayland only, and never looked back. I even ditched Krita in favour of Gimp, solely because Gimp supports Wayland (from version 3, and on 2.99 before that). To this day, I don’t understand X, like at all. It’s all some super complicated pile to me. While I don’t understand Wayland either,…

Remember x11 was initially a client server model, where multiple clients could access a single x11 server. This brought a lot of complexity we don’t use these days

> Remember x11 was initially a client server model, where multiple clients could access a single x11 server. This brought a lot of complexity we don’t use these days

It's worth noting that the "client" and "server" are flipped from what was typical: your screen on your desk is the server and the client is a program running on some expensive machine on a rack somewhere.

It's still really cool to be able to spin up a GUI app on a remote machine, and use it like it's running locally.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#94

Post by rich_sasha »

I love Linux and vastly prefer it to Windows, but whenever people tell me Linux is vastly more stable than Windows, I think of the whol X11/Wayland saga.

I still scarcely know what these are. In fact I actively don't want to know about compositors and whatnot. When I want GUIs, I just want to see them.

I can list many crappinesses of Windows, but stuff like this kinda just works.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#95

Post by szszrk »

eliaspro wrote: post #76
szszrk wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote assistance, NOT remote logins. It can be used as support when someone is already went to that computer, authenticated and has a full gnome session opened. So you literally CANNOT log in remotely :) If you are lucky, you can assist remotely to a session someone opened locally on that machine. And it's like that on any other WM. KDE also has a deceiving option in settings that suggests full remote desktop, while…

Please just click in the link, read the README! It offers: - remote assistance - headless multi user remote login - headless (single user)

I don't want to argue on semantics. Currently you can't start a graphical session completely remotely using any protocol (RDP, VNC, no machine, whatever).

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#96

Post by vidarh »

ColonelPhantom wrote: post #87
vidarh wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Window positioning is one that on its own is sufficient to make me ignore Wayland, as it means that without my own compositor with my own extension, I can't get a file manager that will behave how I want it. Most people won't care, but for a number of us Wayland is stubbornly refusing to support functionality we see as dealbreakers.

That's fair! I believe that window positioning also works on XWayland, though, so running your file manager that way should still work with the rest of the system being Wayland (and Gnome has no plans to drop XWayland afaik). I believe the main holdup is a desire for Wayland to be usable with e.g. VR interfaces where there is no simple 2d grid. Out of curiosity, how do you want the file manager to behave? And did you…

It's managing the desktop too, so I'm not sure that'd work unless running Xwayland in "rootful" mode, in which case I might just as well run X.

The VR stuff is a poor excuse - just fail on that scenario. Nobody that cares about window positioning will have an issue with that.

My file manager defaults to re-opening a window for any directory to a previously snapshotted location, like the Amiga Workbench did. And, yes, I wrote my own. It's a few hundred lines of of a quick and dirty Ruby hack talking directly to a pure Ruby X11 binding, which is anothe reason I stick with X - I can throw things together quickly for X. The amount of ceremony, or big additional dependencies, needed for Wayland is ridiculous.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#97

Post by ginalloa »

killerstorm wrote: post #25

I've been using Gnome for years, but, honestly, it just isn't good: seems like it's optimized for very basic use. Something as simple as adding launcher to a panel now requires an extension. Also Wayland has some problem on my system (Thinkpad / Intel Xe) where it randomly just goes slow, this makes it an easy choice to try things other than Gnome.

As discussed earlier on HN, KDE these days has been the most usable desktop for many users. It is mostly stable, feature rich and can be customized easily.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#98

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

szszrk wrote: post #95
eliaspro wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please just click in the link, read the README! It offers: - remote assistance - headless multi user remote login - headless (single user)

I don't want to argue on semantics. Currently you can't start a graphical session completely remotely using any protocol (RDP, VNC, no machine, whatever).

I don't use GNOME, or GDM, or RDP, but isn't https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-remote-desktop#headless... describing that?

> GNOME Remote Desktop supports integrating with the GNOME Display Manager (GDM) to achieve remote login functionality. This feature is only available via the RDP protocol. It works by the remote user first authenticating via a system wide password, which gives access to the graphical login screen, where they can login using their user specific credentials.

And then it seems to describe a pure-cli config process that you could set up once over SSH and then be able to RDP to the box thereafter.

Actually for that matter, the next section - https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-remote-desktop#headless... - appears to describe doing a single-user version of the same, explicitly running headless.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#99

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

antiloper wrote: post #23
mx7zysuj4xew wrote: post #3

X11 is not going anywhere. If anything it's Gnome adding another nail to its coffin

X11 isn't going anywhere because distros will ship XWayland for a long time to ensure compatibility with existing X11-only applicatin. xorg-server is gone from the linux desktop. Gnome and KDE use wayland shells by default, and that's what users get when they download a Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/whatever ISO.

> xorg-server is gone from the linux desktop. Gnome and KDE use wayland shells by default, and that's what users get when they download a Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/whatever ISO.

Well, no. Stand-alone Xorg is probably declining on the Linux desktop, but "gone" is inaccurate.

- Sent from i3

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#100

Post by graemep »

ColonelPhantom wrote: post #36
graemep wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that I find Wayland to be a lot buggier than x11. For example, terminal transparency using Konsole on KDE flickers for me. Its nearly there, but not quite. Maybe Gnome has no such issues?

Do you have more specifics? I just tried it on my machine (Fedora 42, Plasma 6.5.1 Wayland, Konsole 25.08.2, Radeon 780M) and it seems fine for me. Does it only occur occasionally/under specific circumstances for example?

I have been testing and its Konsole 25.08.1, does not affect XFCE Terminal.

Plasma v: 6.3.6, Ryzen 7 5800U with integrated graphics. Happens every time I use Konsole with transparency.

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