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Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

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Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#91

Post by plusmax1 »

tschellenbach wrote: post #52

I'm Dutch, the media narrative is a major problem. It's not being honest about the level of relative decline between USA & NL. 20 years of diverging growth rates has had a massive impact. This trend will continue, since NL missed most of the internet, mobile, social and AI startups. Here in Colorado even people at entry level jobs can afford a nice home. Salaries are way lower in NL, and housing is incredibly expensi…

I'm dutch as well and travel relatively frequently to the US (just came back from Washington DC). I'm not sure I see the impact of this "decline" you seem to notice. Perhaps this is also why the "media narrative" is not reporting on it, since it is not really felt that way?

Housing is expensive and we built far too little in the last decades, but this is also extremely expensive the the areas of the US where you actually want to live (The coastal cities, usually). Besides, this seems to be a global issue you read about everywhere.

I feel that, on average, most things in the Netherlands are of a higher standard — from public infrastructure and transportation to healthcare and the overall quality of everyday things, whether it’s food, trains, hotels, or even the items in your bathroom. Every time I travel back and forth I notice this.

Sure, salaries for certain jobs are much higher in the US, but I wouldn't want to switch except to begin a startup, maybe. I like doing business in the US and would visit for the amazing national parks, but prefer actually living in NL. That said, a rise in salaries and perhaps a more business and capital friendly environment are things I support.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#92

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

tschellenbach wrote: post #52

I'm Dutch, the media narrative is a major problem. It's not being honest about the level of relative decline between USA & NL. 20 years of diverging growth rates has had a massive impact. This trend will continue, since NL missed most of the internet, mobile, social and AI startups. Here in Colorado even people at entry level jobs can afford a nice home. Salaries are way lower in NL, and housing is incredibly expensi…

> Here in Colorado even people at entry level jobs can afford a nice home.

Colorado is big. Try that in Aspen ;->

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#93

Post by brabel »

I live in Europe and I am not sure what’s so terrible about us falling behind the US. Are people going hungry? Having a hard time finding a place to live? Traveling to nice places?? Not even that in my view. We live a happy fulfilling life. We are healthy . I would say even that most people are better off than most Americans. The US is ahead mostly because of a few giant corporations and billionaires. The average American is just not benefiting so much from all that wealth.

Also, please stop this colonialist nonsense about spreading our way of live elsewhere. If the world wants to use our model of life as an example, great otherwise leave them the hell alone! Want to help them out of poverty? Trade with them on fair conditions. Don’t give them scraps in exchange for doing as they’re told! China seems to be doing that much better than Europe ever did.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#94

Post by trashb »

mothballed wrote: post #86
drcongo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree. When you buy olive oil in Europe you get oil made from olives.

Domestically produced USA olive oil is actually olive oil. If you buy olive oil in Europe you get olive oil. If you buy olive oil from Europe you may get olive oil, you might get something else. This is because European olive oil trade has large component of European (largely Italian) gangsters involved in the olive oil export trade.

You seem to state that USA regulates production of a product where EU regulates what product and how a product is sold.

As a consumer myself would prefer regulation on what is sold, laws only work within your borders so the USA can't regulate EU production but can regulate import from Europe and vice versa.

> (largely Italian) gangsters

Seems to imply criminal/illegal activity, that is everywhere and not really important to the statement. If it's just that you are not expecting to be sold a fake while it is legal, maybe the law needs updating.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#95

Post by trashb »

xp84 wrote: post #72
toomuchtodo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do not need to because their social systems are structured around public goods and services for humans instead of profits. Americans have to get rich to buy into a functional system, because they were unlucky enough to be born on the wrong soil. My health insurance for a family of 4 in Spain is $2k/year. In the US, $20k+ (premiums, copays, etc). Why? Combined market cap of UHC and CVS as of this comment is $391B…

I don’t know about Spain, but when I did some brief research it looks like senior software engineers in the UK make often substantially under £100,000. Away from London even £60,000. Most seniors at my company in the US make about £150,000. £50-70k of incremental salary pays for a hell of a lot of health insurance premiums and retirement contributions.

UK is not Europe since Brexit happened.

You earn locally and spend locally. It's about local buying power and wealth, not about $197.644,50 > £60,000.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#96

Post by trashb »

xp84 wrote: post #81
saubeidl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a very related note, I can recommend Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher. To quote Wiki: > It explores Fisher's concept of "capitalist realism", which he describes as "the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it." > The book investigates what Fisher describes as the widespread effects o…

But haven’t many countries not only imagined but tried very different alternatives to capitalism? What have we learned from those countries? It seems to always come back to the fact that people who get power always attempt to use that power to get more resources and power, violating all their supposed values and stealing resources from the public. Personally, I am far from enamored with the apparent equilibrium state…

> It seems to always come back to the fact that people who get power always attempt to use that power to get more resources and power, violating all their supposed values and stealing resources from the public.

Seems no different in capitalism.

Ever considered that the failures of other methods does not inherently mean the success of the current method.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#97

Post by mothballed »

trashb wrote: post #94
mothballed wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Domestically produced USA olive oil is actually olive oil. If you buy olive oil in Europe you get olive oil. If you buy olive oil from Europe you may get olive oil, you might get something else. This is because European olive oil trade has large component of European (largely Italian) gangsters involved in the olive oil export trade.

You seem to state that USA regulates production of a product where EU regulates what product and how a product is sold. As a consumer myself would prefer regulation on what is sold, laws only work within your borders so the USA can't regulate EU production but can regulate import from Europe and vice versa. > (largely Italian) gangsters Seems to imply criminal/illegal activity, that is everywhere and not really impor…

Europeans are in the same predicament as Americans, except since EU domestic olive oil is superior to American domestic oil, there is simply little to no demand to buy olive oil in EU from outside the EU.

Therefore you don't have a largescale problem of importing fake olive oil, not because your laws are superior, but because your domestic natural resources and skillsets don't economically demand such risky import.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#98

Post by logicchains »

trashb wrote: post #84

A lot of (not all) European regulation is at it's core about trade. Things this author feels are "obstructions to trade" are to enable trade of the things we value. For example Europe might regulate what fish species you can sell if you call a fish "Anchovy". Additionally some regulation applies minimal standards, for example regulation of the angle of what's visible in the rear view mirror of a car. On top of that s…

>sometimes we favor safety, standard of living or social safety nets above short term profit.

Did you read the whole article? The current European standard of living is built on debt and unsustainable without an increased rate of growth (to outgrow the debt). And it potentially poses an existential threat, because if Europe's GDP and industrial capacity relative to its neighbours continues to fall, it faces the risk of invasion by e.g. Russia.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#99

Post by FredPret »

stego-tech wrote: post #89
FredPret wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Europeans… so much happier than… Americans” Citation needed, and not to a Facebook Quiz-tier “how happy are you on a scale of ten” questionnaire. My experience is obviously anecdotal, but it is quite varied, and the exact opposite.

I am not your search engine. If you have data that refutes my position, share it. Otherwise, personal experience is not indicative of a larger consensus or observed attitudes and outcomes, nor are “grass is greener” lamentations an acceptable supporting argument.

Until we mass-scan people’s brains, there will never be reliable data on this. Facebook-tier research and anecdote is all we’ll ever have on happiness.

When “the larger consensus” is built on nothing but bullshit soft science coming out of the hard-left humanities departments and old Soviet propaganda that’s still echoing in people’s minds today, I’m just going to ignore it and form my own impression.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#100

Post by polotics »

xp84 wrote: post #76
vatsachak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, besides being of Latvian descent, why would one want to move from the US to Latvia?

Especially given that odds are better than 50% that you will find yourself in a new, larger Russia at some point in the next 5-10 years. Not cheering the prospect, but it seems like Putin knows the US won’t get involved in Europe anymore, and therefore Russian expansion into all former Soviet territory, at minimum, just makes sense.

Latvia is more likely to defend itself successfully than Ukraine, Latvia joined NATO in 2004, an aggression there spells the end of the whole Russian oil industry, and after that Russia's North Korea.
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