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Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

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Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More efficient advertising. Not worth it in my opinion though.

I dont think you understand the implications of banning this. In principle you ban any kind of content recommendation. Reddit, Netflix, YouTube, Twitter, etc.

No? Our society doesn't treat jobs as equally important as all kinds of content. Having rules around content recommendation around jobs is easily doable without banning any kind of content recommendation.

Or did I miss obvious sarcasm?

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anyone was owed a job? The problem is that hiding listings from people based on their gender obviously impacts who gets what jobs.

Nobody is hiding anything. But the point about not being owed a job is that even if they were "hiding" something, that wouldn't be a problem. You are not owed visibility of a job in the same way you are not owed the job itself.

This is not true, at least in Europe. There exists well-established anti-discriminatory law, which dictates equal opportunity in employment. When targeted advertising is based only on demographic signals, it creates strong information asymmetry. Let’s say someone is not actively looking for a job, but gets information about new opportunities through ads more frequently, than someone else with same skills but different gender or background. When this happens at scale, the people like the first person will have more upward mobility than second group. Or the second group has to invest considerably more resources to find a better job. This is classic discrimination.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#94
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think you understand the implications of banning this. In principle you ban any kind of content recommendation. Reddit, Netflix, YouTube, Twitter, etc.

No? Our society doesn't treat jobs as equally important as all kinds of content. Having rules around content recommendation around jobs is easily doable without banning any kind of content recommendation. Or did I miss obvious sarcasm?

The content you consume has a large influence in your education and career.

If you get recommendations for "Technology" and someone of the opposite sex doesn't its completely discriminatory.

If you don't think its a problem then you likely dont understand how recommendation systems work.

The only way recommendations could work is you would explicitly state preferences for everything upfront and no engagement data is used.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#95

> The Netherlands Institute for Human Rights said in a February 18 decision that Facebook’s algorithm reinforced gender stereotypes by mainly showing “typically female professions” to female Facebook users in the Netherlands and that Meta (META), the social platform’s owner, should have monitored and adjusted its algorithm to prevent that. > For example, ads for mechanic positions were predominantly shown to men, whi…

They accuse the algorithm of perpetuating gender stereotypes, but it's really society that's doing that. The ads are just trying to be the most efficient and in doing so they mirror the preferences of society. I don't know why anybody ever assumed that professions would ideally be 50-50 by gender, but that does seem to be something that people come into these arguments assuming.

Put another way, what's the conversion rate shear between mechanic job listings between women and men?

Overall, agree with your take.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#96
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The algorithm is responding to people's revealed preferences in what job ads they want to see

All discrimination can be described as "revealed preference". A very convenient way of ignoring systemic harm.

You would need to connect men not being as prevalent in child care profession roles to some sort of systemic harm. Or women not being as prevalent in construction worker roles. Just because there's a discrepancy between the two genders doesn't mean there's systemic harm stemming from it.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The onus needs to be on convincingly demonstrating the alleged systemic harm. Until then, "revealed preference" seems more appropriate.

Are you saying the harm from gender-based employment discrimination needs to be demonstrated, or that harm from facebook's permitting of that discrimination needs to be demonstrated?

You're begging the question.

The challenge is to compel belief that unequal gender distribution across professions creates a systemic harm.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took a long time for doctors to become more balanced despite it not necessarily being economically efficient. There’s inertia where people don’t like changing the status quo. I don’t know if solving the ad targeting changes anything given that the bias is on the advertiser side, but it could conceivably change the candidate pool that is being selected from.

This is basically just a consequence of people being a long-lived species. The question is whether the side effects of artificially speeding up the process won't negate the original intent. Also, the very fundament may be wrong. The authors of anti-discrimination statutes seem to be awfully certain of things such as "men can take care of babies in nurseries equally well as women can". We do not know if this is, in fa…

There was discrimination for very very long periods of times. For example, Jews weren’t allowed to hold many professions for a very long time in Europe. Black people in America were slaves and continue to feel the effects of discrimination today. It still exists in other cultures today. The idea that capitalism solves discrimination magically does not appear to be borne out in any evidence I can find. Economic efficiency takes advantage of societal changes and removal of discrimination. Not the other way around.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically just a consequence of people being a long-lived species. The question is whether the side effects of artificially speeding up the process won't negate the original intent. Also, the very fundament may be wrong. The authors of anti-discrimination statutes seem to be awfully certain of things such as "men can take care of babies in nurseries equally well as women can". We do not know if this is, in fa…

There was discrimination for very very long periods of times. For example, Jews weren’t allowed to hold many professions for a very long time in Europe. Black people in America were slaves and continue to feel the effects of discrimination today. It still exists in other cultures today. The idea that capitalism solves discrimination magically does not appear to be borne out in any evidence I can find. Economic effici…

"The idea that capitalism solves discrimination magically does not appear to be borne out in any evidence I can find."

We should distinguish between formal legal disabilities ("Jews are prohibited from X by law") from informal discrimination that is the target of modern anti-discrimination law ("Sean Murphy does not want to employ any goddamn Englishmen"). Emancipation has a reasonably good, though not perfect, record. Anti-discrimination is a much newer idea which is much less proven in practice, though for plenty of people, it sounds convincing on paper.

If you look at the European Jews specifically, upon formal emancipation, they were able to establish themselves very quickly, both in business and the academia. In fact much of the subsequent 20th century anti-Semitism was borne out of jealousy of their success.

You won't find many aftereffects of the long-lived Chinese Exclusion Act or Japanese Internment Camps on the current well-being of Asian Americans either.

As for women, they are now outnumbering men in higher education by a considerable margin and, in the young cohorts, outearn them. By the logic of affirmative actions, there should be one for men probably...

It is true that not every group in the world was able to catch up once their shackles were released, but plenty of them actually were, and there was nothing magical about it.

Notably, the one exceptional group that mostly didn't catch up - American blacks - seems to be struggling even with all sorts of formal crutches constructed with the intent to help them. For example, the diversity programs at Harvard et al. seem to be mostly exploited by recent immigrants from Africa instead of generational American blacks.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#100
post #27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Situation: Men are clicking on job of mechanics, more than women. Consequence: men are now more likely shown mechanics job. What is gained: more accurate content, more interesting content, more engagement. As a result: men are more likely to be shown jobs interesting for men, and women are more likely to be shown jobs interesting for women. Which means: Increased chances to find a matching job, and to save time doing…

Nope. What you eventually get is women not getting a variety of jobs they could apply to and a death of men in professions that actually need more men (e.g. nurses, teachers etc.) We already been through this. It's not ancient history

I think gendered professions are the norm across ancient history. Algorithmic advertising didn't create this.
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