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Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

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Re: Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

#91

Post by eru »

thelastgallon wrote: post #83
bnjmn wrote: post #18

Here's a use case that seems more science fictional to me (as the parent of a 2yo) than warp drive: a robot that can gently restrain an uncooperative human baby while changing its diaper, with everything that entails: identifying and eliminating all traces of waste from all crevices, applying diaper cream as necessary, unfolding and positioning the new diaper correctly and quickly, always using enough but never too m…

This should be achievable once hand job robots are widely deployed and proven to be safe. Men are usually sacrificed first and I'm sure there will be volunteers.

Depends on your definition of a 'handjob'.

For some definitions, we already have the capability.

Also keep in mind that for the handjob robot, the user is expected to be cooperating and to be interested in self-preservation.

Small children defy these common sense expectations.

Re: Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

#92

Post by eru »

tintor wrote: post #45
Onavo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? There's nothing particularly special about this problem. I would bet a year for an alpha version, and production version in 5 years. We are not exactly limited by mechanical engineering here, there's nothing particularly unique about the human hand that can't be replicated. Tele operated surgical robotics have been a thing for decades. Give it a few months for the multimodal robotic VLM/LAMs to catch up. In many…

> there's nothing particularly unique about the human hand that can't be replicated Humanity is far from replicating / matching performance of human hand.

We are far from matching the performance of a human hand in general, but for special tasks we can totally match or exceed the performance.

For example, a nutcracker can crack nuts better than my hand. A dishwasher can wash dishes better than my hand.

A special robot might be able to change diapers better than my hand.

Re: Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

#93

Post by eru »

imtringued wrote: post #68
Onavo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? There's nothing particularly special about this problem. I would bet a year for an alpha version, and production version in 5 years. We are not exactly limited by mechanical engineering here, there's nothing particularly unique about the human hand that can't be replicated. Tele operated surgical robotics have been a thing for decades. Give it a few months for the multimodal robotic VLM/LAMs to catch up. In many…

The point is that the success rate needs to be 99% and safety needs to be 100%. You're not allowed to take shortcuts. That's what makes it difficult. Also VLMs/LAMs aren't going to cut it. You're going to need something like TDMPC.

It's good that you make a distinction between success rate and safety rate.

However, safety rate doesn't need to be 100%. If you can keep the failure probability as low as the probability to be hit by a random asteroid falling from the sky, that's good enough.

Re: Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

#95

Post by otikik »

dylan604 wrote: post #28
robobenjie wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great one. The manipulation is hard, but we're probably on a trajectory to be able to do it in 1-3 years if you were tolerant of some risk to the baby, but, of course, your tolerance for injuring babies is basically zero. I think 'risk & reliability' is a good potential category: there is the bar of 'got it to do a task reliably enough that we got a video' and the bar of 'got it to do a task reliably enough…

> your tolerance for injuring babies is basically zero. Um, no it's not. Is absolutely zero tolerance. There is not weasel words out of this. If a robot was to cause any pain to the baby, there would be no remorse. There would be no front of mind thoughts to not repeat the same thing the next time. There would be no guilt for causing pain to the baby. Why you would "basically" this the way you have is disturbing.

> Zero tolerance

Well that is simply not possible. Even mothers drop their babies to the floor sometimes (very infrequently, I hope). Even for humans the tolerance isn't zero.

Re: Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

#96

Post by iainmerrick »

duck wrote: post #84
robobenjie wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is my favorite suggestion. All of them are super hard, but - Bronze: pillow in pillow case - Silver: Make a bed with fitted sheet, flat sheet and blanket - Gold: put a duvet in a duvet cover Feels like it would be a good option for a round 2...

Most humans would be hard pressed to get a gold medal in this one.

Exactly, this is one where it might actually be quicker to wait for the robots.

Re: Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

#97

Post by iainmerrick »

muvlon wrote: post #50
robobenjie wrote: post #2

Hey Hacker News. Curious if folks feel like I'm missing categories of challenge.

Something I still struggle with as a human: Cracking an egg into a bowl. No making a mess and no egg shell in the bowl. Gold Medal: Separate the egg white from the yolk!

Separating the yolk is the easy part once you've got it into the bowl with no mess -- a half-eggshell is the perfect tool to scoop the yolk out.

Re: Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

#99

Post by anentropic »

amirhirsch wrote: post #15
robobenjie wrote: post #2

Hey Hacker News. Curious if folks feel like I'm missing categories of challenge.

I like these benchmarks and the videos are funny! Consider examples using building tools like screwing in a drywall screw, or hammering a nail, using a paint roller, caulking a sink, minor plumbing repair with a torch and solder. These differ enough in terms of forces, state changes, and combined dexterity/acuity (two-handed proprioception) from the windex, sandwich and key examples Ikea product assembly for gold med…

Ikea assembly often needs two people, so robot+robot and person+robot co-operation challenges is a whole area to be explored

Re: Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

#100

Post by Retric »

eru wrote: post #88
Retric wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero failure rates not just 0.000…1 are a very different and unrealistic bar. Software must be treated as actively malicious from a hardware standpoint from multiple bit flip errors etc. So it comes down to designing hardware capable of the task that’s also incapable of causing harm even with hardware defects etc. Meanwhile it must also be strong enough to move and restrain a range of infants which is a level of forc…

You can't get to zero failures. You might always get hit by a freak accident. Or an unlucky combination of cosmic rays replaces all your software (including all the redundant and fail safe systems) all at once. This is all extremely unlikely, but not literally 0. Note: I specifically mention an unlucky combination of cosmic rays. You can protect against a single or even a handful of cosmic rays just fine.

> You can't get to zero failures.

For this device you agree with mine and the original posters position.

A Diaper however can be designed not to risk grievous bodily harm for an infant when used correctly by a human. If someone doesn’t change their kids dipper that’s neglect by the parents not a negative news story for the manufacturers. We’re a long way from this point when it comes to robots.

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