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Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

data-star.dev

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Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#91

Post by troupo »

jmstevers wrote: post #47
troupo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a mish-mash of different ad-hoc DSLs. You have a DSL based on data-* attributes But then some attributes get this weird syntax-ish extension Then some of those attributes accept a Datastar expressions DSL: https://data-star.dev/guide/datastar_expressions So you can have data-on-click__debounce.200ms="$landingGearRetracted && @post('/launch')" Which is just bad design

What design do you think would be better?

Both Datastar and HTMX have the same issue: they want to pretend to be HTML. So they force themselves into writing several DSLs like this to pretend that this is still "just HTML".

Since they have a full "Datastar expression" language, I'd just expand that. Then you wouldn't need these weird constructs:

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#92

Post by troupo »

hasanhaja wrote: post #67
troupo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a mish-mash of different ad-hoc DSLs. You have a DSL based on data-* attributes But then some attributes get this weird syntax-ish extension Then some of those attributes accept a Datastar expressions DSL: https://data-star.dev/guide/datastar_expressions So you can have data-on-click__debounce.200ms="$landingGearRetracted && @post('/launch')" Which is just bad design

I can see what you're saying. But again, the API design woes are subjective and I think it's perfectly fine to iterate on getting this to a nicer state. "Wrong" to me suggests a gap in the understanding of fundamentals or of how things work. If the ideas of Datastar are fine to all of us, and our issues with it are ergnomics, then that can be a more focused discussion.

> But again, the API design woes are subjective

They aren't. This is not good API design
> "Wrong" to me suggests a gap in the understanding of fundamentals or of how things work.

Snide vaguely dismissive remarks don't make such remarks true.

> If the ideas of Datastar are fine to all of us

Who's us? Are these "us" in the room with us right now?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#93

Post by imiric »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #70
imiric wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think this is the most sustainable approach for monetizing open source projects, as long as the developer is fair about it. That is, truly make features that only large and/or enterprise users would have a use for, and only charge for those, instead of arbitrarily deciding to put core features of the software behind a paywall. In the case of a web framework, that choice is a bit difficult. But if the software is…

I'm skeptical about this business model because it can become worse than proprietary software dependency over time. You get lured in by thinking it's open source and free, and might end up paying as much as the developer wants for essential features a few years later.

Like I said, it's crucial for the developer to be fair about it. Running a sustainable business built on open source is entrepreneurship on hard mode. Some companies do a better job at this than others, and, unfortunately, open source has been abused as a marketing strategy on many occasions.

No matter how you look at it, though, any business model that enables users to use open source software is a much better option for users than any proprietary software. There's no comparison. Given the choice, I'd much rather use OSS that is eventually rugpulled or enshittified than proprietary software, which carries those same risks, while also restricting my freedoms from the get-go, and having additional risks I might not be aware of at all (exploiting my data, security issues, etc.).

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#94

Post by sarchertech »

Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #86

Not sure why the community is being so hostile like use phoenix or it charges or its hostile Like no its not. This is a genuinely cool project and most parts of it is open source and it can run on any language and its interesting that they are looking at a way so that they can fund the development of it in the process as well Its their project and they are the only ones entitled to really push things the way they wan…

The problem is that a small company still needs to provide support from their own very high cost of living country.

$5 doesn’t cover the cost of you filing a single support ticket.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#95

Post by nchmy »

speff wrote: post #73
nchmy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a world we're living in - I point out that a hostile comment is hostile, and I'm labeled hostile. Once again, they aren't charging anything. Pay them if you want some largely-unnecessary features, or if you just want to support years of hard work and innovation. That's what I did. But you do you.

If you're amenable to feedback, the impression I got from your initial comment was "a hostile comment pointing out another hostile comment". It assumed a negative motivation on OOP based on vibes and you ran with it. Even this comment's parting line: > But you do you. - seems like a truism. I get the feeling it's meant to be read as "I give up. You can keep whatever wrong viewpoint you have".

Finally a good-faith reply!

I concede that my original comment here was somewhat hostile, but only really the first line. And it wasn't even all that hostile - especially when the rest of the comment was really just informative and positive about datastar.

And, moreover, is standing up to poor behaviour - even if done in a somewhat hostile/confrontational way - really such a bad thing? It seems quite clear to me that they were not communicating in good faith - they didnt come to discuss features, philosophy about open source sustainability, or actual reality of the messaging on the site and their discord server.

Instead THEY are explicitly saying that Datastar's devs are being dishonest in some way for having a pro license (which, again, they quite clearly say most people should not buy) as a way to bring a modicum of sustainability to something that theyve dedicated years to and given 99% of the value away for free.

They could have said "This looks interesting, but I noticed that there's a pro license if you want to get some features. Are these features necessary? Is this price reasonable? Should we be against there being a 501c3 behind this? etc..."

But they did none of that. I think that all that a reasonable person can really conclude is that they're either the disdainful sort of person who thinks all code should be free for everyone, or that they are just trolling, or perhaps even that they dont like how datastar is challenging the status quo of webdev.

Hence, "you do you" - you interpreted it exactly as I intended.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#96

Post by esjeon »

This pattern isn't new per-se. The industry already went through it when moving from DHTML to XHR, and it was (mostly) abandoned for good reasons. Modern DOM patching techniques gave rise to some newer variations, but they still make the same old trade-offs. They don't really solve engineering issues like tight coupling and brittleness, nor network issues like latency and larger payload volume.

So, to me, this feels more like an effort to offer a more affordable solution (in terms of engineering cost) for small-/mid-sized companies, rather than a push to expand the boundaries of the technology. Not a bad thing, but it's just a bit disappointing to see history kinda looping back on itself.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#97

Post by NaomiLehman »

esjeon wrote: post #96

This pattern isn't new per-se. The industry already went through it when moving from DHTML to XHR, and it was (mostly) abandoned for good reasons. Modern DOM patching techniques gave rise to some newer variations, but they still make the same old trade-offs. They don't really solve engineering issues like tight coupling and brittleness, nor network issues like latency and larger payload volume. So, to me, this feels…

Doesn't Astro solve this already?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#98

Post by NaomiLehman »

bradly wrote: post #27
mbvisti wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not sure i think this is a good way to fund their work BUT exploring models to make open-source sustainable for the developers does seem like a good thing, no?

I have no problem with anyone charging what they would like, but I do think it should be mentioned on the homepage. It feels intentionally left off which makes me think the developers themselves aren't 100% comfortable with the model.

I think most people are not comfortable with making money or talking about money. Also people who are bad at making money might be bad at marketing/handling this.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#99

Post by beardicus »

nchmy wrote: post #31
bradly wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with anyone charging what they would like, but I do think it should be mentioned on the homepage. It feels intentionally left off which makes me think the developers themselves aren't 100% comfortable with the model.

They're completely comfortable with and unapologetic about the model. And they're not hiding anything.

i went looking for pricing info and it's the last item in the last menu on the website... it's not exactly up front. i was looking for a "pricing" top-level menu item first, which is pretty standard nowadays.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#100

Post by nchmy »

Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #86

Not sure why the community is being so hostile like use phoenix or it charges or its hostile Like no its not. This is a genuinely cool project and most parts of it is open source and it can run on any language and its interesting that they are looking at a way so that they can fund the development of it in the process as well Its their project and they are the only ones entitled to really push things the way they wan…

This is the only valid and reasonable criticism I've seen here so far, kudos to you.

299 is, indeed, inaccessible for many people. But, the devs live in places where things cost more, so its also a tiny price compared to the relative value that they provide.

I do think that some sort of geo-relative pricing structure would be worth looking into, but how does one even implement something like that? Is there something that makes it all "just work"? I suspect not. Moreover, the devs have already given away so much of their time - it doesnt make much sense for them to invest even more of it into designing a pricing system like this, from which they are going to possibly earn only a negligible amount from. Perhaps this is a problem that you might like to address yourself?

Anyway, the devs are very clear that most people should never need the Pro license. 95+% of the functionality and value is available for free in the open-source library. Use it, enjoy it, learn from it, profit from it!

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