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Uv overtakes pip in CI

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Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#91

Post by kstrauser »

andy99 wrote: post #84
Alir3z4 wrote: post #63

I seriously still don't know why I should use "uv". I just create my .venv and pip install. Rarely I'd need a different version of python, in case I do, either I let the IDE to take care of it or just do pyenv. I know there's the argument of being fast with uv, but most of the time, the actual downloading is the slowest part. I'm not sure how big a project should be, before I feel pip is slow for me. Currently, I hav…

If it sold itself on its merits I don’t think we’d see all these fawning posts about it. It’s a Rust fan thing. You can see how any criticism gets treated. I’m sure it works for some people and obviously if it does, then great. But it’s got this same weird cult following and pretend talk of speed that lots of Rust stuff has. It’s getting a little tiring. If you like it, use it, evangelizing is obnoxious.

What’s more obnoxious is dismissing it as a rust fanboy conspiracy. Know what I like about it? `uv install .` with a few dozen top-level dependencies takes under a second on my machine. All the tools work as documented all the time. `uv run …` is nearly instant. Those are the reasons I like it.

I couldn’t care less that it’s written in rust. It could be conjured from malbolge for all I care. It works as advertised, whatever it’s written in.

Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#92

Post by tclancy »

anitil wrote: post #48
bognition wrote: post #3

This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who has been using Python and has tried uv. Python dependency management and environments have been a pain for 15 years. Poetry was nice but slow and sometimes difficult. Uv is lightning fast and damn easy to use. It’s so functional and simple.

For me the most convincing argument was that it took ~3 minutes to go from 'I wonder if I should give this thing a try' to 'oh it .... it worked!?'

Yeah, been doing this for over twenty years and finally got a chance to start playing with it a few months back and was confused at how I got that far that fast.

Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#93

Post by rednafi »

I literally stopped writing Python for scripting a year ago - the distribution story was too painful. With LLMs, there's not much a dynamic language offers over something like Go even for quick scripting.

Also, on a new machine, I could never remember how to install the latest version of Python without fiddling for a while. uv solves the problem of both installation and distribution. So executing `uv run script.py` is kind of delightful now.

Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#95

Post by kstrauser »

walkabout wrote: post #82
kstrauser wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m certain there’s going to be so bizarre edge case where pip is fine and uv isn’t. It’s inevitable. However, in every situation where I’ve used it, pip is better than pip or poetry or any other package manager I’ve ever used. I just found out they’re still making pipenv. Yes, if you’re using pipenv, I’m confident that uv will be a better experience in every way, except maybe “I like using pipenv so I can take long…

Yeah, I’m just skeptical because I was at an agency in the heat of yarn-mania, waaaay after people online were proclaiming npm dead and pointless, and it went poorly enough that we developed a ha-ha-only-serious joke that you knew a project was properly in-development when someone had lost a half-day debugging some really weird error only to find that “npm install” instantly fixed it, and then switched the started-in…

I could see that being traumatizing, but this really isn’t like that. Pip and uv and poetry and the rest don’t fundamentally change how a package is installed into a Python virtualenv. If `uv add foo` works, you could use the equivalent in any of those other tools and get basically the same result. You don’t have to know or care which tool is installing your project because that’s all invisible from inside the code you write.

Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#96

Post by tclancy »

simonw wrote: post #22
torben-friis wrote: post #10

As an outsider to python, I never got how a language who got popular for being simple, elegant and readable could end up with perhaps the most complex tooling situation (dependencies, envs, etc). Any time I glance at the community there seems to be a new way of doing things. What caused python to go through these issues? Is there any fundamental design flaw ?

It's mostly about age. Python has been around for 35 years now. The first version of a Python package directory was the cheeseshop (Monthy Python reference) in 2003. The earliest version of a pip-like tool was "easy_install" which - I kid you not - worked by scraping the HTML listing page of the cheeseshop and downloading zip files linked from that! More recent languages like Node.js and Rust and Go all got to create…

Man, there was a window there where I still fell back to easy_install on Windows because it would handle C based stuff more reliably until wheels got invented. It’s been a journey.

Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#97

Post by dmd »

walkabout wrote: post #74
bognition wrote: post #3

This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who has been using Python and has tried uv. Python dependency management and environments have been a pain for 15 years. Poetry was nice but slow and sometimes difficult. Uv is lightning fast and damn easy to use. It’s so functional and simple.

Is this like when everyone on here had already been saying Yarn was a no-brainer replacement for npm, having totally obsoleted it, for like two-plus years, but it was still lacking safety/sanity checks, missing features, and broke in bizarre ways on lots of packages in-the-wild? Or is the superior replacement actually up to the job this time?

It really is just that good. That is why it's had such massive uptake. No matter how many times you've been burned before, no matter how skeptical you are, it's so good that, seriously, just try it, and you'll be instantly converted.

Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#98

Post by forrestthewoods »

Alir3z4 wrote: post #63

I seriously still don't know why I should use "uv". I just create my .venv and pip install. Rarely I'd need a different version of python, in case I do, either I let the IDE to take care of it or just do pyenv. I know there's the argument of being fast with uv, but most of the time, the actual downloading is the slowest part. I'm not sure how big a project should be, before I feel pip is slow for me. Currently, I hav…

Run a program should never ever require more than a single simple run command.

If your project requires creating an env and switching to shit and then running it’s a bad program and you should feel bad.

Quite frankly the fact that Python requires explaining and understanding a virtual environment is an embarrassing failure.

uv run foo.py

I never ever want running any python program to ever require more than that. And it better work first time 100%. No missing dependencies errors are ever permitted.

Also, Conda can fucking die in a fire. I wil never ever ever install conda or mini-conda onto my system ever again. Keep those abominations away.

Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#99

Post by atoav »

Alir3z4 wrote: post #63

I seriously still don't know why I should use "uv". I just create my .venv and pip install. Rarely I'd need a different version of python, in case I do, either I let the IDE to take care of it or just do pyenv. I know there's the argument of being fast with uv, but most of the time, the actual downloading is the slowest part. I'm not sure how big a project should be, before I feel pip is slow for me. Currently, I hav…

A sure way to learn why it is needed would be to:

1. Write code that crosses a certain complexity treshold. Let's say tou also need compiled wheels for a performance critical section of a library that was written in Rust, have some non-public dependencies on a company-internal got server

2. Try deploying said code on a fleet of servers whose version and exact operating system versions (and python versions!) are totally out of your control. Bonus points for when your users need to install it themselves

3. Wait for the people to contact you

4. Now do monthly updates on their servers while updating dependencies for your python program

If that was never your situation, congrats on your luck, but that just means you really weren't in a situation where the strengths of uv had played out. I had to wrestle with this for years.

This is where uv shines. Install uv, run with uv. Everything else just works, including getting the correct python binary, downloading the correct wheel, downloading dependencies from the non-public git repo (provided the access has been given), ensuring the updates go fine, etc.

Re: Uv overtakes pip in CI

#100

Post by hk1337 »

bognition wrote: post #3

This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who has been using Python and has tried uv. Python dependency management and environments have been a pain for 15 years. Poetry was nice but slow and sometimes difficult. Uv is lightning fast and damn easy to use. It’s so functional and simple.

It’s a little too fast, I’m having trouble believing it’s actually doing anything sometimes.
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