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The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

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Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#91

Post by Narciss »

dagmx wrote: post #85

Atrophy has really been an issue in my recent hiring cycles for good senior engineers. 80% of senior candidates I interview now aren’t able to do junior level tasks without GenAI helping them. We’ve had to start doing more coding tests to weed their skill set out as a result, and I try and make my coding tests as indicative of our real work as possible and the work they current do. But these people are struggling to…

I was actually thinking about this the other day while vibe coding for a side project.

I am a lead engineer, but I’ve been using AI in much of my code recently. If you were to ask me to code anything manually right now, I could do it, but it would take a bit to acclimate to writing code line by line. By “a while”, I mean maybe a few days.

Which means that if we were to do a coding interview without LLMs, I would probably flop without me doing a bit of work beforehand, or at least struggle. But hire me regardless, and I would get back on track in a few days and be better than most from then on.

Careful not to lose talent just because you are testing for little used but latent capabilities.

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#92

Post by alchemism »

dagmx wrote: post #85

Atrophy has really been an issue in my recent hiring cycles for good senior engineers. 80% of senior candidates I interview now aren’t able to do junior level tasks without GenAI helping them. We’ve had to start doing more coding tests to weed their skill set out as a result, and I try and make my coding tests as indicative of our real work as possible and the work they current do. But these people are struggling to…

Pair a senior with an agent LLM, pair a junior with an agent LLM, measure the output over some cycles. You will find your answer in the data, one way or another.

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#93

Post by dagmx »

k__ wrote: post #90
dagmx wrote: post #85

Atrophy has really been an issue in my recent hiring cycles for good senior engineers. 80% of senior candidates I interview now aren’t able to do junior level tasks without GenAI helping them. We’ve had to start doing more coding tests to weed their skill set out as a result, and I try and make my coding tests as indicative of our real work as possible and the work they current do. But these people are struggling to…

It's a matter of opinion what you should know and what you can easily google or ask an LLM.

If someone needs to continuously google how to use the basic data structures in a language they use every day, then I worry about their ability for knowledge retention as a whole.

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#94

Post by derekcheng08 »

AI is (or has the potential to be) a gigantic abstraction layer and software engineering is filled with abstraction layers. But one thing that has consistently held true is that the best engineers -- while taking advantage of abstractions -- also have the curiosity and intelligence to peel back and at least understand the gist of what's going on behind the scenes. So while most of us will never write a TCP/IP stack, it's helpful to know the protocol. While many will simply call into a hosted distributed database, strong engineers will know broadly how it is implemented and there are availability/consistency trade-offs, etc.

It's the same here: if you just shut off your brain and do what AI says, copy/pasting stuff from/to chat windows, that's going to be a bad time.

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#95

Post by 1718627440 »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #61
slackfan wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That would only come close to working as an argument if X and Y were mutually exclusive, but this article doesn't even bother to make the case that they are, nor is there any reason why they would be.

Deadline X isn't relevant when deadline Y comes earlier. That doesn't mean that deadline X couldn't also kill the project, that just doesn't matter when you can show that deadline Y already did.

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#96

Post by dagmx »

Narciss wrote: post #91
dagmx wrote: post #85

Atrophy has really been an issue in my recent hiring cycles for good senior engineers. 80% of senior candidates I interview now aren’t able to do junior level tasks without GenAI helping them. We’ve had to start doing more coding tests to weed their skill set out as a result, and I try and make my coding tests as indicative of our real work as possible and the work they current do. But these people are struggling to…

I was actually thinking about this the other day while vibe coding for a side project. I am a lead engineer, but I’ve been using AI in much of my code recently. If you were to ask me to code anything manually right now, I could do it, but it would take a bit to acclimate to writing code line by line. By “a while”, I mean maybe a few days. Which means that if we were to do a coding interview without LLMs, I would prob…

In your scenario though, how do you avoid hiring based on blind faith?

How do I know you aren’t just a lead with a very good team to pick up the slack?

How do I separate you from the 20 other people saying they’re also good?

Why would I hire someone who can’t hit the ground running faster than someone else who can?

Furthermore, why would I hire someone who didn’t prepare at all for an interview, even if just mentally?

How do you avoid just hiring based on vibes? Bear in mind every candidate can claim they’re part of impressive projects so the resume is often not your differentiator.

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#97

Post by Herring »

dagmx wrote: post #93
k__ wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of opinion what you should know and what you can easily google or ask an LLM.

If someone needs to continuously google how to use the basic data structures in a language they use every day, then I worry about their ability for knowledge retention as a whole.

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

(It's a matter of opinion)

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#98

Post by woooooo »

Narciss wrote: post #91
dagmx wrote: post #85

Atrophy has really been an issue in my recent hiring cycles for good senior engineers. 80% of senior candidates I interview now aren’t able to do junior level tasks without GenAI helping them. We’ve had to start doing more coding tests to weed their skill set out as a result, and I try and make my coding tests as indicative of our real work as possible and the work they current do. But these people are struggling to…

I was actually thinking about this the other day while vibe coding for a side project. I am a lead engineer, but I’ve been using AI in much of my code recently. If you were to ask me to code anything manually right now, I could do it, but it would take a bit to acclimate to writing code line by line. By “a while”, I mean maybe a few days. Which means that if we were to do a coding interview without LLMs, I would prob…

Leetcode was always a skill mostly practiced for interviews though, right? Arguably its a better signal now in the era of vibecoding that someone can do it themselves if they have to. It used to be "yeah of course I'm responsible in my job, I use a library for this stuff". But in this era, maybe performative leetcode has more value as a signal that you can really guide the AI.

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#99

Post by dagmx »

alchemism wrote: post #92
dagmx wrote: post #85

Atrophy has really been an issue in my recent hiring cycles for good senior engineers. 80% of senior candidates I interview now aren’t able to do junior level tasks without GenAI helping them. We’ve had to start doing more coding tests to weed their skill set out as a result, and I try and make my coding tests as indicative of our real work as possible and the work they current do. But these people are struggling to…

Pair a senior with an agent LLM, pair a junior with an agent LLM, measure the output over some cycles. You will find your answer in the data, one way or another.

Truthfully, in my experience, they both end up performing near the level of the LLM. It’s an averaging factor not an uplifting one.

Re: The deadline isn't when AI outsmarts us – it's when we stop using our own minds

#100

Post by raincole »

foxglacier wrote: post #75
raincole wrote: post #46

When it comes to "humans collectively..." kind of grand scheme issues, I just can't take the risk of AI making us stupider too seriously, compared to: - Wars and violence to resolve geopolitical problems - The biggest trading partner of most countries is waging tariff warfare - Climate change - Declining birth rate in almost every country - Healthier foods are getting more expensive despite our technology and nutriti…

You've been reading too much news. There are global societal risks but they're not just whatever the popular bogeymen of hour are supposed to be. Some of your concerns might even be backwards. I doubt you've critically thought about any of these and are just regurgitating what was fed to you. If you lived in an earlier time, you'd be worrying about the rise of homosexuality, communism, atheism, etc.

The exact same argument can be made for people who claiming AI would make us dumber:

If they lived in an earlier time, they'd be worrying about the rise of google, the internet, tv, radio... were going to make people stop using their brains. Socrates believed writing was going to make people stop memorizing stuff.

I'm not a doomsayer who thinks the world is on the edge of collapsing. But I do think the issues I listed are much more 'real' than AI making people stop thinking. (Including the birth rate one - yeah, I'm well aware that many people think it's a good thing. As someone whose mother worked at a nursing home, in a country with TFR of 0.78, I just don't agree with them. I believe people hugely underestimate the manpower needed to take care of the elderly and disabled.)

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