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Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

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Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#91

Post by 1718627440 »

js8 wrote: post #49
RandomLensman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was undemocratic about the decisions to support Ukraine?

To my knowledge, these things are never put forward as an election topic or referendum. There is no discussion with citizens, it's always a fait accompli, we have to do it for national security sort of thing. The blowback is not discussed. I am from Czechia, and Russians attacked Vrbětice munition factory, because it supplied Ukraine. That's the reason. But in media it's always portrayed without this context. FWIW, I…

I don't thing this decision was done without population support. We also don't supply the Ukraine to win. We just don't want the Ukraine to fall, because we think we are next.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#92

Post by antalis »

aaomidi wrote: post #71
askonomm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a joke, right? Diplomacy is something Russians completely disregard, lie about, and only agree to do when they are the only one benefiting, and even then only until they decide to break whatever agreements were made, because they've done so every single time so far. How do you have any diplomacy with someone like that? You can't.

This is basically every superpower.

I don't think Russia is a superpower or that all superpowers act like that. Russia is just a mafia state.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#93

Post by 1718627440 »

newsclues wrote: post #4

No one listened, no one prepared. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Munich_speech_of_Vladim... It’s not like there was any warning signs… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 Bullies exploit weaknesses. Time to grow a pair.

Putin also was in prison in Germany in the 90ies for trying to overthrow the government and restore Soviet control.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#94

Post by jacknews »

severino wrote: post #18
fraboniface wrote: post #11

How do you (especially Europeans) understand this move from Russia? Can it really sustain a war against us? Does it want to break NATO by proving the US won't move?

What move, you mean about the drones? I first want to be sure about what happened. Remember that few years ago you were still being labeled as "Russian propaganda" if you had doubts about the NS incident.

Now we're expected to believe a rag-tag crew of Ukrainians used a leaky sailboat to simultaneously detonate deep water pipelines, lol.

Denmark and Sweden gave up thier investigations quite quickly, probably they arrived at the truth but couldn't say it, only Germany was strong-armed into keeping the charade going.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#95

Post by derelicta »

bootsmann wrote: post #13
derelicta wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Regarding the Malaysian airline, Westerners do this all the time Western governments shoot down civilian airliners all the time? (Also funny how the propaganda has shifted from “Actually the Ukrainians shot it down” to “Actually others do this too”)

Ukrainians have done it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/135...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Just two examples Ofc when we do it it's alright. Only when others do it then it's bad.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#96

Post by docdeek »

MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #61
adastra22 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very likely that there is no working nuclear arsenal.

It's very likely that some of it doesn't work. Maybe even a lot. But I would not care to test how much in a war!

Exactly. The size of the Russian arsenal is such that - even if 80% of it is broken and entirely useless - it still has about twice as many warheads than the two European nuclear powers, France and the UK, combined.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#97

Post by docdeek »

adastra22 wrote: post #79
saubeidl wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all of this is true, all it takes is literally one nuke that works.

It takes a lot more than one nuke that works. They would need hundreds of strikes, probably thousands to ensure they aren’t immediately annihilated in response. There is a game theory to nuclear warfare, and dropping one city buster on a nuclear armed adversary is the sovereign equivalent of suicide-by-cop.

If this is the case, do France and the UK even have a nuclear deterrent? They have just over 500 weapons total between them - is there any chance that they are able to “ensure that they aren’t immediately anihalated” by a Russian response?

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#98

Post by dralley »

JV00 wrote: post #54
altcognito wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what kind of "lowering" you are referring to, but the US is selling more gas than ever to the EU: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-lng-exports-surge...

At three times the price it used to pay Russia

Yes, LNG is more expensive than pipeline gas. This is known. That would have been a good reason to build more pipelines to Norway.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#99

Post by NicoJuicy »

throwaway_dang wrote: post #78
piva00 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany still has a very large industrial base, things don't just disappear into the ether because they aren't profitable. Factories are still there, they can be retooled in case of need such as in a war. Perhaps you should be a bit more humble when spewing bullshit, it might even make it more believable instead of this word vomit.

Russia has about twice the steel output that Germany does, comparable to the United States (which has twice the population of Russia). Russia uses about twice the electricity that Germany does too. Here's Germany doing its NATO exercises with broomsticks due to shortages https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick... https://carnegieendowment.org/europe/strategic-europe/2018/0... What was that you we…

Russia can't even make Lada's without Europe ( see : Renault ) no matter the output of steel.

Germany actually builds tanks that work.

I'd compare GDP if you want a measurement. Oh yeah, use EU's GDP of course. Germany alone is 2 x Russia.

Russia is basically a little brother of Italy. Trying to matter on the world stage.

With the border Russia has with the EU, they don't have enough resources to defend it.

And I'm not even talking about Finland's military who joined NATO...

Ps. About Germany: https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/media/stories/2023/rheinmetal...

https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/products/tactical-wheeled-veh...

And then Russia: https://united24media.com/latest-news/russias-tank-reserves-...

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#100

Post by js8 »

af78 wrote: post #50
js8 wrote: post #17

I am not sure what European "leaders" expected. Many of them support Ukraine militarily in the war, so yes, EU is in fact in war with Russia, through Ukraine as a proxy. I oppose the military support to Ukraine. I think it's responsibility of the stronger party, here NATO, to seek deescalation. I also disapprove that the military support for Ukraine was decided undemocratically, without any consideration whether this…

Russia is the aggressor in this war; if it stopped its aggression and withdrew from Ukraine, the war would stop. So the responsibility for deescalating falls squarely on Russia. Russia has no intention to stop; on the contrary it is ramping up the production of military equipment. As only military means can stop a military aggression, it makes every sense for European leaders to support Ukraine militarily. If anythin…

Which war? Yes, between Russia and Ukraine, Russia is the aggressor, and bigger. Between NATO and Russia, NATO is the aggressor (from Russian perspective) and bigger.

Russia started the war in Ukraine to stop the NATO expansion. It's against the international law, but this intent was made pretty clear also in Georgia.

EU and NATO then reacted with more NATO expansion, and supporting Ukraine militarily. They didn't offer any deescalation. (IMHO NATO should have kicked Turkey out of NATO - not a democratic country - in exchange for Ukraine to continue being sovereign neutral state.)

Neither side wants to deescalate. I think both sides behave as little children. But with rockets and nukes.

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