Live data from Hacker News

Aphantasia and Psychedelics

psychedelirium.substack.com

91–100 of 122 posts

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#91
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect you, fellowniusmonk, but all we ever get about aphantasia is self-report, anecdote, self-assessment questionnaire, subjective impression. People want me to be nice about this and acknowledge that the thing exists because they all say it does. The best I can offer is acknowledgement that you all say it does. On the other hand, you have a special claim to plausibility because of the surgery. Oh wait cardiovas…

As someone with aphantasia, all I ever get from people who can visualize is self-report, anecdote, self-assessment, etc. By definition, this will always be the case until we have a deep enough understanding of the brain to diagnostically assess this. What I can assure you is that I cannot see/imagine with my mind, and that many other aspects of my life make sense given this limitation, e.g. when people describe their…

Well said.

I have similar feelings about those who claim to have an internal monologue or voice etc. It's all so alien to me. Outside of dreams or hynagogia, my "self" and internal experience is non-verbal, non-visual, and mostly lacking any other sensory qualia.

If "me" is rooted in any perceptual qualia, I think and experience a vague mixture of a spatial awareness, proprioception, topology, and emotion. I can barely summon sound memories like music, and this could include lyrics. This recall is very faintly rooted in auditory qualia. Like the ghost of an echo down a distance corridor. Moreso, I can "feel" such music memory as a hint of proprioception, i.e. the after-thump of bass in my body or the after-tingle of a cymbal in my ear. But it utterly lacks the presence and richness of real listening.

I can think about words and phrases I've either heard or read, or try to arrange some words to write or speak later. But they're fleeting concepts, neither visual nor auditory in quality. They're not like the sound or music memory above. They're also not visuals of typography. In fact, I've more than once had words in my lexicon that I could neither pronounce nor reliably spell. I could readily match them to parsed words when reading, but would be unable to express them.

Finally, I have a relative with schizophrenia. I've witnessed how she behaves when hallucinating and/or having delusions. She often seems to experience her thoughts as if being talked to over her shoulder, or can manifest a fear into seeing dangerous threats. Her experience seems a kind of polar opposite to mine.

I wonder how it is to be somewhere in the middle of this range. It must be different from hers, to be useful but not schizoid. And it also seems like it must be a lot more vivid and accessible than my usual experience.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#92
post #72
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Or maybe rather understand. For me it was a lightbulb moment just like my realisation of exactly how bad my colourblindness was: what is next to impossible for me to see (red drawings on woods in maps) was chosen by someone who thought it stood out. I'm at least pointing out that I now know personally that there are multiple levels of visualisation, from me just "feeling" what it would mean to rotate a 3d object…

I really wish I could occupy your brain for a few minutes to see just how much of this is language. There's an amazing effect in this conversation where I remain convinced that basically everything I've heard could come down to definitional differences, and yet it really could come down to a radically different subjective experience between us, and I have no real way of knowing.

With me I know:

I know if I close my eyes now there is nothing visible.

I also know if I have a good night's sleep and wake up late on Saturday I might be able to see images of things I am working on in the garden or elsewhere.

So I know seing nothing is my default and I know that seing something vividly can be possible.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#93
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to draw better than people who can "visualize" better throws doubt on what type of thing "visualizing" really is.

I don't think that makes sense. Most people struggle to draw even with something to copy right in front of them. Seeing something is insufficient to draw well. It's also not necessary in order to draw well.

I don't say I draw nice drawings. I am referring to this art/experiment:

https://www.booooooom.com/2016/05/09/bicycles-built-based-on...

I don't draw impossible bikes. Because I know what bikes are. That is what I mean. Not that I can make nice or even photographically correct images of them.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#94
post #71
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you have aphantasia as well. I had without knowing it. Some observations: Someone told me to close my eyes and think about "an apple at a table". Then I was told to open my eyes and tell what color the apple was. The question didn't make sense to me: I only thought about about the concept of "an apple on a table". When my eyes are closed it is black. Absolutely black. Blacker than a Norwegian winter night with…

It's hard to describe. I think there's more nuance here. When you ask "What colour was the apple?" then I can "fill in" the colour and imagine a "red" one. But it's more like the details are filled in "on demand" or "lazilly" rather than "ahead of time". And like I said, it's not the same thing as actual visual hallucination. It is helpful to have someone engage, for sure. I have a question for you: if you look at a…

> if you look at a 3d object that you can only see one side of, can you make inferences about the other side of the object? Can you rotate it in your head? Could you quickly be able to tell whether an object will fit in a particular hole, without actually trying it?

Obviously I cannot know for sure what the other side looks like without seeing it, but I can make a reasonable guess and yes, I can mentally turn around objects in my head to see if they fit.

I also enjoy woodworking and repairs and other activities that force me to think 3D, but I believe it would be much easier if I could think in images.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#95
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Or maybe rather understand. For me it was a lightbulb moment just like my realisation of exactly how bad my colourblindness was: what is next to impossible for me to see (red drawings on woods in maps) was chosen by someone who thought it stood out. I'm at least pointing out that I now know personally that there are multiple levels of visualisation, from me just "feeling" what it would mean to rotate a 3d object…

Being able to draw better than people who can "visualize" better throws doubt on what type of thing "visualizing" really is.

I'm referring to this experiment / art thing:

https://www.booooooom.com/2016/05/09/bicycles-built-based-on...

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#96

An aphantasia "beginner's guide" for those who aren't familiar or just want to learn more: https://aphantasia.com/guide/

I read much of that guide. I was initially led to believe that I have aphantasia. I certainly don't see things that don't exist - that would be an hallucination. I can imagine and describe it in vivid detail if I want, but it's not there - I don't see it in the same way I see the physical reflection of light on surfaces. Similarly I don't hear sounds that are not produced by difference in air pressure hitting my ear…

It leaves you with not having aphantasia! I rather suspect quite a lot of people who believe they have it simply differ on the level of literalism they're willing to use to describe their imagination than those who've led them to believe they have it.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#97
post #85
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, your meditation experience sounds more like an altered state induced by the meditation, rather than confirmation of what non-aphantasiacs experience on a daily basis. And I'm jealous you had that experience.

Whether it was an altered state or not, it showed me the ability to see vivid imagery. And the experience isn't even on the high end of reported abilities to visualise.

Yea and it seems weird to assume that since these states are possible that most humans are mistaken when for millennia they’ve talked about having mental imagery. The idea that aphantasia is just language confusion is so strange to me. As someone who has aphantasia I understand the “oh shit” moment when you realize that there’s more going on but the evidence seems pretty overwhelming to me that most people have some internal imagery.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#98
Apparently it is possible, at least for some people, to "cure" aphantasia with a training technique is called "image streaming." I'm on the aphantasia side of the spectrum, and it has certainly help me see more vidid images in my mind's eye. Here is a link to the article where I learned about it, which also includes a video explaining the technique. https://photographyinsider.info/image-streaming-for-photogra...

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#99
post #88
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can draw things I imagine, even though I can't see them. This is what I mean though. What do you mean by "see" exactly, if not imagine? You can imagine something so clearly that you are able to replicate it on paper, yet that is not the minds eye? I also see while dreaming, in a way that is more like my day to day experience, and not at all how I would describe imagining things. > I saw images as clearly as if I…

This is hard to talk about because all of our terms for it involve assumptions of seeing. But when I "imagine" something, there is unambiguously no visual whatsoever . I can't see lines, colors, points. Nothing, any more than if there was a wall between me and an object I have never seen. But that doesn't mean I don't have knowledge of it. > I also see while dreaming, in a way that is more like my day to day experien…

Maybe let's loop in other senses for a second. Since, presumably aphantasia doesn't apply to all senses? I can imagine the sensation of my tongue on a cold ice cream, and even the taste. But I don't _taste and feel_ it. I can imagine burning my hand on a hot stove, but I don't recoil. See how they are separate but related? The same is true for how I imagine things visually. I don't actually see them, but I imagine them. I don't know how else to articulate that seeing and visualising are not the same thing.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#100
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your core issue is with trying to quantify and observe others Qualia I think you're going to have a hard time. I still have people tell me I must be faking my colorblindness, or just treat me like I'm blind. Normally teenagers, theory of mind is tough at that age. I'm not sure nice or just a smidge of humility/uncertainty in expressing doubt. Propagation of information pre-internet was so low people just couldn't…

Ed Catmull surveyed people at Pixar, and there wasn't a particularly strong correlation in their staff between ability to draw and aphantasia or not - they had artists with aphantasia such as Glen Keane, who created Ariel[1] For my part, while I'm not a great artist by any means, there was absolutely a time where I was well above average at drawing, despite aphantasia. People struggle to draw things that are right in…

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Obviously because each person is different a/b tests are somewhat impossible for qualia issues. All I have is access to my pre/post expierence. It seems aphantasia can be intrinsic or emergent and since mine developed potentially through damage or re-wiring during surgery I wouldn't be suprised in the slightest that the pathways and compensations are different or non-existent for my case but not for others.

Post reply on HN