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RTO: WTAF

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Re: RTO: WTAF

#91

Post by PeterWhittaker »

aeze wrote: post #35
EmilStenstrom wrote: post #18

Sigh This debate has been going on for years now. Remote is good for: People who work alone & People that don't like commuting Remote is bad for: People who work together with other people & People who like socializing IRL (including managers) Too many developers think they are working alone, while in fact they are part of a team and they would be better off working closer to that team.

I work together with my team and I socialize IRL with friends, family, or sometimes coworkers essentially every day of the week. I’ve been fully remote since 2018. Your comment makes no sense to me. Also, likes commuting? You can listen to your podcast anywhere.

Ditto, and I find that that socializing is higher value, because it is special: we made an effort to meet (and depending on one's WFH habits, that effort might be considerable), we didn't just shout "pub?" over the partition.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#92

Post by oblio »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #86
SR2Z wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. I think that American tech companies would prefer a motivated at-will employee at 3x the cost of an unfirable European with a statutory month off every year. I think that none of this will magically make it easier to raise money outside the US. There are obviously plenty of brilliant people outside the US. Unfortunat…

> I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. This is sortof absurd on the face of it. For context, I'm a European who's been working for US based companies for well over a decade now, and rarely do I have communications issues (and they're generally with non-native English speakers, mostly Europeans living in the US). > I think that American tech companies wo…

Yeah, the magical American is the reason for US tech dominance. There's a reason why the biggest software companies come from big countries:

1. large internal markets provide more funding and more competition at the start

2. which leads to better product-market fit

3. which leads to more dominance as the natural software monopolies happen

4. which leads to easier taking over of smaller foreign markets

Biggest software companies? American and Chinese. Also Indian ones are starting to rise, too.

In comparison Europe is super fractured. Ignoring big US companies, the average French person buys stuff from a totally different website than the average German, for almost category you can imagine.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#93

Post by interpol_p »

badgersnake wrote: post #40
interpol_p wrote: post #8

We have some sort of hybrid policy. Every single time I have showed up at the office, I either end up socialising far too much and get nothing done (I find it extremely hard to work next to people without talking to them). Or nobody is there and I end up having driven (40 minutes each way) to the office to have Teams meetings with a wonderful view of the car park, under fluorescent lights, using a cheap low-resolutio…

> socialising far too much and get nothing done Alternatively, you networked, built useful relationships and shared knowledge.

Sure. I catch up with many of them on weekends anyway — we hike together, our families know each other, some live nearby etc.

Regarding knowledge sharing, that happens equally well via Slack. (Actually, I'd say a screen share works better than over-the-shouldering someone else's screen in person)

Re: RTO: WTAF

#94

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

"but it’s a sure-fire way to rid yourself of those pesky skilled and experienced employees. "

That's so true. In my niche, everybody WFH, only the most desperate folks take stationary/hybrid offers - and only for the time it takes them to find the proper job. (Yeah I know everybody's different but I just share my anecdata - we do meet in person sometimes but it is not forced and we genuinely enjoy it.)

Re: RTO: WTAF

#96

Post by doom2 »

mft_ wrote: post #13

I think there are three alternative hypotheses the article misses from its list: * Ego: senior people need to be seen and respected in person; being reduced to equally-sized thumbnail videos on Teams doesn't feed this need. * Real estate: some companies have financial commitments (e.g. long-term leases, owned buildings) to large office buildings which need to be justified; selling or ending the lease early might refl…

> Ego: senior people need to be seen and respected in person

The funny thing is that the CEO of my current employer lives in Connecticut and rarely (ever?) comes into the office in Manhattan. When he does come in, they shut the office down for "leadership meetings" so all the New York based employees can't come in anyway!

Re: RTO: WTAF

#97

Post by eska »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #86
SR2Z wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. I think that American tech companies would prefer a motivated at-will employee at 3x the cost of an unfirable European with a statutory month off every year. I think that none of this will magically make it easier to raise money outside the US. There are obviously plenty of brilliant people outside the US. Unfortunat…

> I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. This is sortof absurd on the face of it. For context, I'm a European who's been working for US based companies for well over a decade now, and rarely do I have communications issues (and they're generally with non-native English speakers, mostly Europeans living in the US). > I think that American tech companies wo…

In order to fire a German employee outside of their multiple month trial period they have to commit a crime or willfully ignore instructions, or the company must be in financial trouble due to outside circumstances. Underperforming is not a legal reason to fire somebody.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#98

Post by oblio »

eska wrote: post #97
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. This is sortof absurd on the face of it. For context, I'm a European who's been working for US based companies for well over a decade now, and rarely do I have communications issues (and they're generally with non-native English speakers, mostly Europeans living in the US). > I think that American tech companies wo…

In order to fire a German employee outside of their multiple month trial period they have to commit a crime or willfully ignore instructions, or the company must be in financial trouble due to outside circumstances. Underperforming is not a legal reason to fire somebody.

My guess is, the employer just needs to do the legwork of documenting the performance issues.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#99

Post by thefz »

SR2Z wrote: post #66
bonoboTP wrote: post #26

It bears repeating that if you're a tech worker in the US, your greatest asset is your physical location. You might think you like remote jobs, but you will have competition from South America, Western and Eastern Europe, etc. as well as people in the US living in flyover states in the middle of nowhere with cheap rent. If the focus also shifts more to raw input-output task accomplishmentbas opposed to in person soci…

I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. I think that American tech companies would prefer a motivated at-will employee at 3x the cost of an unfirable European with a statutory month off every year. I think that none of this will magically make it easier to raise money outside the US. There are obviously plenty of brilliant people outside the US. Unfortunat…

> I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are

I speak Italian, English and French. I speak English to you because it's the only language you know. We are not the same.

> I think that American tech companies would prefer a motivated at-will employee at 3x the cost of an unfirable European with a statutory month off every year.

We work to live, not the opposite. Again, we are not the same.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#100

Post by lnsru »

Lio wrote: post #85
lnsru wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also studying many MBA books about decision making in corporate environments. Many cool things about data driven decision making. Costs and alternative costs, etc., many cool things, some even with scientific background. RTO is also analyzed in similar manner. The truth is that RTO is great way to ditch people with longer commute and/or kids easily and for free. And unions (as they’re in Germany) are happy. But…

I wonder if it’s possible for to sensibly short stock based on RTO announcements? Generally people don’t push for redundancies is companies growing organically. If this is a signal I wonder what the lead time is before it starts to bite?

I think, two rounds of RTO reduce headcount by 4-6% and the company is still functional. Work packages are delegated to the folks who stay. Few months later lost key persons get replacement. It’s not like throwing 2/3 workforce and concentrating on core business.
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