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How can I influence others without manipulating them?

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#91

Post by Lewton »

lukan wrote: post #75
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

> That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space).

or anyone who's been in a plane?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#92

Post by pjc50 »

saagarjha wrote: post #80
immibis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most significant evidence that the earth is flat is that you can just look out your window and it's obviously flat, but all the round-earth evidence is complicated sciencey stuff. If someone doesn't believe in complicated sciencey stuff, they just won't believe you, and they'll conclude they have evidence and you don't. At what point do you just walk away from the argument?

Yes, but the round earther can provide a model that matches your observations. Round earth is a better model because it matches reality more often while also accounting for a lot of the obvious flat earth arguments (mostly, that they hold true locally).

But they don't care. And more importantly, don't want to agree with you.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#93

Post by lukan »

Lewton wrote: post #91
lukan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

> That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). or anyone who's been in a plane?

What kind of planes are you flying?

I mean, I just checked, it seems under ideal conditions one could see the curvature of earth at 10.5 km height, but to me it was not really a convincing curvature last time I did a long flight. Your experience was different?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#94

Post by pjc50 »

saagarjha wrote: post #84
latexr wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have legitimate evidence That’s a tremendously high bar. Who defines what constitutes “legitimate” evidence? Anyone can disagree on what that means and you’re back to square one. Look up “The Final Experiment” and its aftermath. Despite convincing the flat earthers who participated, the ones who observed it via livestream dug their heels in further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Experiment_(expedit…

I mean to some extent if you doubt the results of your experiments you’re not going to get anywhere, because you can never prove a model. At some point the simpler model is the one that wins out and some very small number of observations that go against it can be accounted by sampling error or hoaxes or whatever. Where you draw that line is up to you of course but generally the scientific community does fairly well o…

> generally the scientific community does fairly well on extremely well-supported theories.

Then you step outside of the scientific community into the flamethrower of public opinion, and suddenly you have to deal with people who think it's a good idea to give their kids measles.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#95

Post by zmgsabst »

immibis wrote: post #73
saagarjha wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not? There’s ample evidence to support the earth being round. If you have legitimate evidence to the contrary I’d be happy to listen to you.

The most significant evidence that the earth is flat is that you can just look out your window and it's obviously flat, but all the round-earth evidence is complicated sciencey stuff. If someone doesn't believe in complicated sciencey stuff, they just won't believe you, and they'll conclude they have evidence and you don't. At what point do you just walk away from the argument?

That one is easy because it’s directly refuted by lived experience — eg:

There’s mountains outside my window, so… not flat.

Do you have evidence that it’s flat? — what do you even mean by “flat” when I can see ripples in it?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#96

Post by pjc50 »

vdqtp3 wrote: post #58
motorest wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. No, it is not the definition of integrity. If you opt to double-down on positions you held in spite of being presented to evidence that contradicts or refutes your prior beliefs, the behavior you are displaying is opposite of integrity, s…

Rape is wrong. It doesn't matter what your evidence or positions or logic are, you will not sway me on that point. I suspect that sort of thing is what GP meant.

Yes. But what happens in practice, both in actual rape trials and the court of public opinion, is a battery of arguments to say that it wasn't "really" rape. Disbelief at the woman's version of events. (Or, for other cases, the socially subordinate person in the interaction). Arguments that various sorts of actions or forms of dress constitute consent. Introducing the victim's previous sexual history to discredit them. And so on.

This is why "#metoo" was so controversial.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#97

Post by zkmon »

Let's go back in history of influencing. How did the Egyptian workers were influenced to build pyramids? How did the leaders influence populations to be part of revolutions? How did the kings influence armies to engage in battles? Slavery apart, but there is something else.

You need to realize that people are not inherently individual beings. In some cultures, individuals hardly have any identity of their own. The identify themselves with a larger creature and they become part of that creature. They play a role assigned to them.

So, influencing involves making an individual to lose their individuality to some extent and become a part of the larger interest group. From that point, it is a matter of telling them what to do for the larger community.

This was easier in the old times when social bonds were stronger in families, tribes, villages etc. Individuals hardly had any privacy. Everyone in the village knows what's going on in every home in that village.

Getting these bonds back is the first step. When you try to influence someone, your need to make them understand who you are, to them. And why it is beneficial to have that bond. Once you have that "we" between you two, there is no explicit influencing required.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#98

Post by lukan »

sejl wrote: post #83
lukan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

How funny, this comments screams to me that you have not argued with a genuine flat earther. Debates with them are not remotely interesting; they're constantly reaching to religion, magic, and Jewish control. Find someone grounded who also enjoys debating and it's a fun topic to cover, however.

Well, the main thing I learned in such debates is, you are free to believe what you want

I don't feel responsible for grounding the facts you somehow believe in.

But in another mood, I might have shared links to certain Telegram groups, or connect you with some people I know personally. They would be eager to enlighten you, if you are in for that.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#99

Post by simonask »

lukan wrote: post #75
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

The thing about this particular topic is that humanity has known this fact for millennia, not because we flew or went to space, but because we sailed. Any human who has watched ships come in to a harbor would be able to trivially tell you: We see the masts before the ship.

Where I grew up you can stand by the shore on a clear day and see the tree tops on the neighboring island, but not the beach. Sailing there, the beach emerges from the horizon.

The only way anybody can come up with "Flat Earth" is by living in the middle of a continental landmass.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#100

Post by simonask »

immibis wrote: post #73
saagarjha wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not? There’s ample evidence to support the earth being round. If you have legitimate evidence to the contrary I’d be happy to listen to you.

The most significant evidence that the earth is flat is that you can just look out your window and it's obviously flat, but all the round-earth evidence is complicated sciencey stuff. If someone doesn't believe in complicated sciencey stuff, they just won't believe you, and they'll conclude they have evidence and you don't. At what point do you just walk away from the argument?

Go to the shore. Watch the ships. It's not complicated sciencey stuff.
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