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Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

bessstillman.substack.com

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Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#91

Post by anal_reactor »

Aurornis wrote: post #28
aeturnum wrote: post #17

> We medicalize grief because we fear it. I think this is just incorrect. You are not obligated to seek treatment for most medical problems[1]. The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in and when people enter a situation where they may need external help. One of the diagnostic criteria, which this article mentions, is that y…

> The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in The problem is that medical diagnoses and therapy speak have spilled over into common language where they’re so diluted that they’re not accurate any more. For many there is no line drawn anywhere because they are self-diagnosing based on flawed understandings as soon as any feeli…

> Many will have no formal diagnosis at all or even proudly claim that they don’t trust the medical system, they’re just diagnosing themselves.

The thing is, many people have valid reasons not to trust the medical system. Not so long ago:

1. Homosexuality was considered a mental disease

2. Forced sterilization of minorities was good medical practice

3. FDA ignored warnings about pesticides being potentially harmful because that would be bad for business

4. FDA ignored warnings about pesticides being potentially harmful because that would be bad for international politics

5. Entire field of psychiatry was just basically random shit, it's not until very recently that we have any actual scientific knowledge

6. Pregnant women were presribed medicine that fucked up their fetuses

Not to mention that most likely when you go to a doctor you're not getting state-of-the-art diasgnosis, most likely the doctor is just a random guy doing his job, sometimes better sometimes worse. Personally I don't trust medical system with my mental health because medical system is a product of a society that made me have mental problems in the first place.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#92

Post by LeafItAlone »

graemep wrote: post #2

There is a problem with rigid medical definitions. There is a huge difference between the author of this, a young pregnant woman losing her husband, and say, something like a middle aged person losing an elderly parent (as I did earlier this year). Of course it will take her far longer to recover (if at all). I would guess her grief is not "disordered" though. As she says she functions - she works, she looks after he…

>a young pregnant woman losing her husband, and say, something like a middle aged person losing an elderly parent

This isn’t really your point, but this person lost their husband at 40. By some definitions, that is middle aged. In the general view of things, not young. That doesn’t really change much, but I was thinking of a mid-twenties before I realized who it was.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#93

Post by righthand »

graemep wrote: post #21
righthand wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the west we’re trained to believe that if something happens there should be some sort of tangible reward on the other end, no matter how minute. Death takes and leaves nothing tangible and it’s the absence that drives us crazy. Since we’re trained this way we seek out some solution with the other trained aspect, spending money. Which in turn only temporarily numbs the grief until you deal with it. We also stigmati…

It used to be in the west. The Catholic Church discourages the scattering of ashes for just that reason - so that there is somewhere physical where people can be remembered. There was a tradition of memorial services. People still look after the graves of their loved ones. I also think its not a simple east-west divide. Different cultures have many different ways of dealing with death. The contemporary west does have…

I agree it’s not a simple divide. I was trying to paint that there are many reasons why we handle death poorly in the west and I honestly only know a raindrop about the east. I can only fathom the handling of death and the reasons why gradients across the globe in every direction.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#95

Post by xyzelement »

NateEag wrote: post #62
krapp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism doesn't presuppose either hedonism or nihilism. This is a common theist libel which is surprisingly popular on this forum of ersatz rational thinkers and logicians. Atheists are perfectly capable of finding value and meaning in their own lives and the world around them, they just don't base that value on a belief in the supernatural. Listen to any astrophysicist, physicist or biologist talk about their field…

> Atheism doesn't presuppose either hedonism or nihilism. And if the GP thought it did, he would not have bothered to qualify it with those labels. Since they _did_ specify "atheistic hedonism/nihilism," we know they're talking about those specific stripes of atheism, and can discuss that.

It looks like you were downvoted but for what it's worth you parsed and explained my intention accurately, and I appreciate that.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#96

Post by roughly »

spyckie2 wrote: post #53
roughly wrote: post #51

I say this with respect and love to the author: it does not sound like you’re handling this just fine. I think you’re right that there’s no way to handle this just fine, and you’re right that you’ve got a very good reason for not being just fine, and it’s in fact very normal and expected for you to not be handling this just fine, but it is also the case that you’re not handling this just fine. I think we tend to reac…

Not to take away from the article, in the comments she states that her world is filled with the joy of new things with her new baby. She is doing as well as one can be for how much she loved Jake and how much she misses him. The author is extremely talented at isolating certain feelings and making you feel them with her. I wouldn't use this article as a diagnosis of anything but her writing talent.

> She is doing as well as one can be for how much she loved Jake and how much she misses him.

Again, my point is that that statement is absolutely true and also does not preclude the notion that additional professional help may be warranted.

I went on Prozac earlier this year after a conversation with my doctor that went, roughly: “I think you’ve got anxiety” “well yeah, look at the fucking world!” “…right.” Just because there’s a good reason for what you’re going through doesn’t mean you’re not going through it.

Put another way, if the author had been shot a year ago and was saying things like “most days I’m fine, but some days I literally cannot walk or feel my left arm,” the notion that they should be talking to professionals would not be controversial, even though their symptoms are absolutely utterly explicable given what they’ve been through.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#98

Post by ToucanLoucan »

mnky9800n wrote: post #48
Aurornis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in The problem is that medical diagnoses and therapy speak have spilled over into common language where they’re so diluted that they’re not accurate any more. For many there is no line drawn anywhere because they are self-diagnosing based on flawed understandings as soon as any feeli…

This is a very american trend in my experience. Americans are quite happy to tell you their long list of diagnoses, how that some how gives them some kind of exception to the rule, and how this is some how part of their identity. This kind of oversharing is common across topics from Americans but in particular oversharing of and obsession with psychological conditions seem to be a common modern stereotype of american…

I mean, I have no data for this, but I think it's a combination of two factors:

- Access to mental healthcare here is HEAVILY gate-kept by a combination of it often costing quite a lot of money, generally having longer waits than most healthcare services, heavy variability in availability by location, and insurance coverage runs the gamut between great or utterly absent, sometimes even in the same policy depending on what you need. Self-diagnosis is for many people the only diagnosis they have access to, and even if it's wrong, you can often use whatever diagnosis it is to find coping mechanisms that help you, or substances that will help you self medicate.

- Naming something medically is the only way to get institutions to pay attention to it, which can mean a number of things by itself, from getting appropriate accommodations at work or school, to getting certain kinds of coworkers or authority figures to treat you in a way that's more amenable to your mental state.

And I don't think its wrong to make it part of your identity either. Some definitely take it to a weird, unhealthy place, and also most of those people are teenagers. Teenagers do tons of stupid shit, I did tons of stupid shit. It's just part of growing up. But ultimately... it is part of you that you're going to be dealing with probably forever, so, some amount of identifying with it is probably healthy.

Edit: Also not sure how to read you calling this "oversharing?" Like I guess it could be depending what it is, but I dunno, my wife has BPD and a touch of Autism, she doesn't announce it when we meet someone but it isn't a secret either.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#99

Post by fleshmonad »

KittenInABox wrote: post #72
pizzathyme wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so sorry for your loss. I agree with what you say about "disordered", the language is hostile. In a less morbid area, I feel the same way about ADHD - "attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder". For some people this is problematic, but others can function fine and happily with this. In those cases, why is it a "disorder"? Why can't it just be "how some people are"?

In my understanding ADHD is one of the few conditions that is extremely well studied and consistently appears to be a certain % of the population regardless of nationality with very strongly correlated negative outcomes with their suite of symptoms. I'm talking addition, obesity, and a shortened lifespan directly related to their ADHD. This seems like a disorder to me. If someone has attention difficulties and can fu…

Function in what context? I have been diagnosed with ADHD at age seven. I have had many checkups and am currently medicated. I can tell you that I wouldn't need to if I didn't have to work a menial wageslave job. Interestingly I can focus perfectly fine when doing interesting stuff without medication and it has always been this way. What you are saying is that there is some proper definition of disorder, which would sensibly be defined relative to some "normal" human baseline. Tell me you know one "normal" human, why you see this person as "normal" and how it would be useful to use this as a reference for the big spectrum of human personality and mental fitness. I can tell you from experience that I didn't need medication when I wasn't forced to attend 12 useless meetings a week, use inefficient and stupid software and one would just let me get my shit done. I have quite a few friends who have had very similar experiences, and the idea of ADHD is just used to pathologize and medicate someone so he can work and be a "positive contributor" to whoever above them. Add here the necessary disclaimer that my experience is not universal and there may be people gravely suffering from it, etc. I do too, even with medication, but at least I can generate some bucks for management.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#100

Post by squigz »

KurSix wrote: post #86

The way the author captures grief (not as a pathology, but as a form of learning, unlearning, and continuing to love) is so raw and honest it almost feels invasive to read. The line "grief is a terrible kind of learning" hit me like a freight train. There's such a deep humanity here, and also a quiet indictment of our culture's need to classify, contain, and "resolve" grief like it's a software bug. We talk a lot abo…

Both Bess and Jake's writing is all very much like this. "Almost feels invasive" is certainly how it felt reading their posts during Jake's illness.
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