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Java 25 officially released

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Re: Java 25 officially released

#91

Post by lab14 »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #52
wry_discontent wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the circles I see, Java isn't popular because it's verbose and boring to use. These days I don't see those as significant issues, tbh. I would prefer a Clojure program, but I'll take Java over Typescript at this point.

> it's verbose and boring to use. Python code that follows traditional Python paradigms is called "Pythonic". Java code that follows Java paradigms is called "awful". To be fully transparent, I've never written Java professionally, only for a couple small hobby projects 10 years ago, plus some while in school, so my opinion isn't worth the pixels you're reading it on, but I look at most Java code with abject horror.…

I think it doesn't have to be like that, but it's the way Java code has been written for ages, so those habits stuck. You can see it clearly when you bring a Java programmer to collaborate on a Ruby or Python codebase, if you let them, the will turn your codebase into an enterprise-ready mess with layers on top of layers of indirection in a blink.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#92

Post by Mawr »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #85
sorokod wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a culture, not language thing. Here is a JSON parser implementation (part of PlantUML) that lacks endless levels of abstraction. https://github.com/plantuml/plantuml/blob/master/src/main/ja...

I'd argue culture solely defines the language. Is there a full library ecosystem of stuff written like the json parser you shared, which is as complete as the enterprisey library ecosystem? Similarly, SO answers? LLM output? Tutorials? YouTube videos? I think the answer is no. It's the same problem with C#. Just adding alternate paradigms means nothing. The only thing that matters is how a majority of code in the eco…

Spot on. You can't separate a language from the speakers of it. You can't redo millions of hours of work put into an ecosystem.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#93

Post by sorokod »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #85
sorokod wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a culture, not language thing. Here is a JSON parser implementation (part of PlantUML) that lacks endless levels of abstraction. https://github.com/plantuml/plantuml/blob/master/src/main/ja...

I'd argue culture solely defines the language. Is there a full library ecosystem of stuff written like the json parser you shared, which is as complete as the enterprisey library ecosystem? Similarly, SO answers? LLM output? Tutorials? YouTube videos? I think the answer is no. It's the same problem with C#. Just adding alternate paradigms means nothing. The only thing that matters is how a majority of code in the eco…

I agree with most of what you are saying except for the "solely defines" bit. The culture is a powerful force but individuals are free to make choices and the language allows for these choices.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#94

Post by lock1 »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #52
wry_discontent wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the circles I see, Java isn't popular because it's verbose and boring to use. These days I don't see those as significant issues, tbh. I would prefer a Clojure program, but I'll take Java over Typescript at this point.

> it's verbose and boring to use. Python code that follows traditional Python paradigms is called "Pythonic". Java code that follows Java paradigms is called "awful". To be fully transparent, I've never written Java professionally, only for a couple small hobby projects 10 years ago, plus some while in school, so my opinion isn't worth the pixels you're reading it on, but I look at most Java code with abject horror.…

As other sibling comments have said, it's cultural. Fortunately, there's some push toward functional & ADT-style modelling in the Java community and they've decided to call it "data-oriented programming" for some reason.

Eh, I don't think Java type system is strict, nor is it the root cause of this cargo cult mess. It's probably due to many enterprise programmers who think design patterns are the building blocks of everything rather than an invisible, emergent structure.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#95

Post by Onewildgamer »

ivanjermakov wrote: post #25
bootman wrote: post #5

Java has been such an amazingly solid technological foundation... and for a long, long time! It may not be the most sexy language but it's been a stable one. We have applications created with Java 1.4 running happily on Java 21 LTS and expect to upgrade to this latest LTS (Java 25) soon. Java for the win!

I wonder where Java would be today without superb tooling and smart student programs from JetBrains.

Java was thriving during the golden age of Eclipse Foundation and IDE. JetBrains is very much recent.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#96

Post by cryptos »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #52
wry_discontent wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the circles I see, Java isn't popular because it's verbose and boring to use. These days I don't see those as significant issues, tbh. I would prefer a Clojure program, but I'll take Java over Typescript at this point.

> it's verbose and boring to use. Python code that follows traditional Python paradigms is called "Pythonic". Java code that follows Java paradigms is called "awful". To be fully transparent, I've never written Java professionally, only for a couple small hobby projects 10 years ago, plus some while in school, so my opinion isn't worth the pixels you're reading it on, but I look at most Java code with abject horror.…

One reason for that Java style is that Java was not such a powerful language for a long time. For example lambda expressions were only introduced in Java 8 (2014) and before that developers need to work around this restriction. A common workaround were/are some annotations above of methods and some reflection magic on top. For example a life cycle callback method annotated with @PrePersist is basically the same a registering a _function_. The whole Lombok library is a massive hack to circumvent some inconveniences in Java (and in my opinion no longer needed).

Re: Java 25 officially released

#97

Post by p2detar »

Noe2097 wrote: post #90
cgh wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is hugely popular and widely used on large backend systems. I guess a lot of people here don't work on such systems? I'm always surprised when I see comments like the parent, since in my career exposure to Java is near-ubiquitous.

There has been a move in the past 8 years away from Java on the back end, notably to Go, by several large engineering organizations, which made the move, "motivated" by the example of companies like Google or by projects like Kubernetes, and seduced by the promises of a language simple to learn, build, and deploy.

> seduced by the promises of a language simple to learn, build, and deploy

That's actually quite correct and I'm saying this as someone that does Java on daily basis. Go is in fact superior in terms of deployment. I would rather deploy a Go-written service than a Spring Boot one. That being said, I love using Java for monoliths - large code bases crammed with business logic. I personally don't see Go doing very well in that direction.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#98

Post by p2detar »

vips7L wrote: post #53
theflyinghorse wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't wait to have a job migrating an application from 17 to java 25 in 10 years!

Already doing the work to move my team to 25 and it's been out for a day.

I'm doing that in 2 weeks. The next major version of our product will require 25.

edit: I wrote "require" when I meant "ship with". We ship a Temurin JRE together with our product, so it's being updated with each new installation.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#99

Post by Foomf »

samus wrote: post #88
Foomf wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Maybe, if I make sure I use openjdk/jump through some hoops I'll be fine. Or, I could just use any other language and not have that worry looming over me. C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. I don't know how to use java and not violate one of Oracle's EULAs. I co…

Just use OpenJDK (only downside is you have to upgrade every half year) or a distribution of another vendor (most people use Eclipse, or Red Hat if they already are Red Hats customers). It's really not as difficult as it is made out to be. If you use Oracle's distribution of the JDK then you are an enterprise customer and should have the resources to deal with their license terms.

"Am I using the correct language runtime distribution (or version thereof) so I don't get into legal trouble?" Is a question none of Java's competitors have to ask.

Even using OpenJDK is a sword of damocles waiting to fall. If I forget to update OpenJDK, Oracle could come after me. It's just risk that I don't have to worry about by choosing not to go with Java. It's probably not a lot of risk, but it's risk nonetheless that doesn't exist with Java's competitors.

Competition is so fierce in the language space and there are so many good options that java can't afford to have any friction points like this.

EDIT: I got oracle openjdk and oracle jdk mixed up. They're different things. It looks like the oracle openjdk does not have its license change, the oracle jdk does. This is a problem/risk I don't have to worry about with any other language, but getting the two mixed up is on me.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#100

Post by lukev »

Foomf wrote: post #99
samus wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just use OpenJDK (only downside is you have to upgrade every half year) or a distribution of another vendor (most people use Eclipse, or Red Hat if they already are Red Hats customers). It's really not as difficult as it is made out to be. If you use Oracle's distribution of the JDK then you are an enterprise customer and should have the resources to deal with their license terms.

"Am I using the correct language runtime distribution (or version thereof) so I don't get into legal trouble?" Is a question none of Java's competitors have to ask. Even using OpenJDK is a sword of damocles waiting to fall. If I forget to update OpenJDK, Oracle could come after me. It's just risk that I don't have to worry about by choosing not to go with Java. It's probably not a lot of risk, but it's risk nonethele…

> If I forget to update OpenJDK, Oracle could come after me.

What?

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