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Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

nature.com

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Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#91

Post by dpkirchner »

bitmasher9 wrote: post #84
dynm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be responding as if I claimed that population-level correlational studies are bad, or that I claimed that air pollution is not bad for you. But I did not claim either of those things. What I claimed is that this press release takes a population-level correlational study and presents it in a misleading way that implies causation was established. Which this press release most certainly does.

The correlation != causation argument at large is usually a sophomoric dismal of valuable data, and I’d rather see discussion on the data or specifics to research methodology then this meta criticism. Ultimately both exaggerating pop-sci articles and dismissive comments are contributing to public distrust of science.

Maybe the thought-terminating cliche should be posted as a comment by a bot at the top of every submission so there's a home for this sort of complaint.

Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#92

Post by dropacid »

dynm wrote: post #50

This article repeats the common mistake of conflating correlations and causality. The main results are (1) that PM2.5 exposure is correlated with dementia in humans, (2) some experimental results with mice. This does not establish causality in humans. The paper is careful to stay juuuust on the right side of the line by carefully using "associated" in the right places. But the press release discards that pretense at…

Another fossil fuel shill

Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#93

Post by romaaeterna »

Avshalom wrote: post #78
dynm wrote: post #50

This article repeats the common mistake of conflating correlations and causality. The main results are (1) that PM2.5 exposure is correlated with dementia in humans, (2) some experimental results with mice. This does not establish causality in humans. The paper is careful to stay juuuust on the right side of the line by carefully using "associated" in the right places. But the press release discards that pretense at…

Oh yeah, sure definitely it's just as likely that people predisposed to dementia move to places with high air pollution...

Well, in some cases we know that they do.

Dementia is linked to diabetes. And diabetes risk is increased for African-Americans. And African-Americans live in high-pollution urban areas for entirely historical reasons.

So some amount of the causation here does go in the way opposite to what a person might naively suspect.

Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#94

Post by [deleted] »

bitmasher9 wrote: post #84
dynm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be responding as if I claimed that population-level correlational studies are bad, or that I claimed that air pollution is not bad for you. But I did not claim either of those things. What I claimed is that this press release takes a population-level correlational study and presents it in a misleading way that implies causation was established. Which this press release most certainly does.

The correlation != causation argument at large is usually a sophomoric dismal of valuable data, and I’d rather see discussion on the data or specifics to research methodology then this meta criticism. Ultimately both exaggerating pop-sci articles and dismissive comments are contributing to public distrust of science.

[deleted]

Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#95

Post by JumpCrisscross »

romaaeterna wrote: post #93
Avshalom wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, sure definitely it's just as likely that people predisposed to dementia move to places with high air pollution...

Well, in some cases we know that they do. Dementia is linked to diabetes. And diabetes risk is increased for African-Americans. And African-Americans live in high-pollution urban areas for entirely historical reasons. So some amount of the causation here does go in the way opposite to what a person might naively suspect.

> Dementia is linked to diabetes. And diabetes risk is increased for African-Americans. And African-Americans live in high-pollution urban areas for entirely historical reasons

A is correlated with B. B is causally correlated with C, i.e. C causes B. (C is correlated with D.) Hence C causes A.

Let’s replace. Flowers are correlated with bees. Bees are caused by hives. (Hives are correlated with trees.) Hence, hives cause flowers.

Loosely, yes. Formally, no.

Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#96

Post by badpun »

Avshalom wrote: post #78
dynm wrote: post #50

This article repeats the common mistake of conflating correlations and causality. The main results are (1) that PM2.5 exposure is correlated with dementia in humans, (2) some experimental results with mice. This does not establish causality in humans. The paper is careful to stay juuuust on the right side of the line by carefully using "associated" in the right places. But the press release discards that pretense at…

Oh yeah, sure definitely it's just as likely that people predisposed to dementia move to places with high air pollution...

There might be some hidden variable at play that's correlated both air pollution that is really causing the dementia. Like street noise. Not saying it's likely, but it's not impossible.

Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#98

Post by giraffe_lady »

bamboozled wrote: post #3

I've heard the argument made that it's better to stop burning fossil fuel, even if you're a climate change denier for reasons like this. Even if you think climate change is a hoax, why not reduce pollution anyway?

What if we create a better world for nothing?

Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#99

Post by saltcured »

Avshalom wrote: post #78
dynm wrote: post #50

This article repeats the common mistake of conflating correlations and causality. The main results are (1) that PM2.5 exposure is correlated with dementia in humans, (2) some experimental results with mice. This does not establish causality in humans. The paper is careful to stay juuuust on the right side of the line by carefully using "associated" in the right places. But the press release discards that pretense at…

Oh yeah, sure definitely it's just as likely that people predisposed to dementia move to places with high air pollution...

It's even worse... dementia sufferers are the ones emitting these particles ;-)

Re: Air pollution directly linked to increased dementia risk

#100

Post by romaaeterna »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95
romaaeterna wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in some cases we know that they do. Dementia is linked to diabetes. And diabetes risk is increased for African-Americans. And African-Americans live in high-pollution urban areas for entirely historical reasons. So some amount of the causation here does go in the way opposite to what a person might naively suspect.

> Dementia is linked to diabetes. And diabetes risk is increased for African-Americans. And African-Americans live in high-pollution urban areas for entirely historical reasons A is correlated with B. B is causally correlated with C, i.e. C causes B. (C is correlated with D.) Hence C causes A. Let’s replace. Flowers are correlated with bees. Bees are caused by hives. (Hives are correlated with trees.) Hence, hives ca…

We know that diabetes causes some amount of dementia and that flowers cause no amount of bees. And so on. Your example is specious, and obviously so.
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