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Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

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Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#91

Post by goosedragons »

throw10920 wrote: post #90
goosedragons wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah dawg. I was a practiced touch typist for years. We had oodles of typing in elementary school. Pain in my pinkies didn't get better. Only worse because keys like {}| are far more important in programming than writing English and add to pinkie stress. Switching to a Kinesis Advantage with thumb keys and layers to put keys like {} under better fingers resolved my problem.

Yeah, the parent's implication is just wrong: > As previously stated, this is only an issue for non-practiced typers. With practice, it no longer feels like stretching. It just becomes muscle memory. Becoming a good typist doesn't magically change your pinkie from being the weakest finger on your hand to the strongest. That's basic anatomy. And, specifically if you are a good typist, then your neutral hand position w…

Yes, firmware on the Advantage 2 (what I have) does allow some QMK type stuff like mod-tap. They call it "tap and hold". It's more limited than QMK from my understanding (e.g., only 1 layer, tap and hold only on certain keys) but for my uses cases it's been fine.

While it's not a true split, the key wells are ~6" apart which is plenty IMO. They do have the similar Advantage 360 Professional which is a true split and uses ZMK for more programmability.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#93

Post by [deleted] »

glxxyz wrote: post #64

I switched to Dvorak about 27 years ago. And I switched back to Qwerty about 26.75 years ago. I got to the point where I could comfortably touch-type in Dvorak to about the same speed as I could Qwerty. While Dvorak was a slightly better layout ergonomically, it wasn't good enough to justify the frustration of switching to a computer that I didn't own at work. I've heard that some people can switch easily and touch-t…

[deleted]

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#94

Post by iLemming »

userbinator wrote: post #72
alpaca128 wrote: post #13

The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others.…

I myself am bottlenecked by my brain, not my typing speed. If you ever have a thought that you want to put into words but need to wait for your fingers, you are being bottlenecked by your typing. Most people think and speak faster than they can type, especially in short bursts; and I'm saying that, as someone who can comfortably type at ~160-180wpm and burst over 200 for a few seconds at a time, I still find myself w…

> If you ever have a thought that you want to put into words but need to wait for your fingers

I'm not sure, I don't think that happens a lot to me, especially because I speak and type in multiple languages. I as well, feel bottlenecked by the brain, not typing speed. Even when I use voice-to-text software, I struggle to speak out loud my thoughts in a well-structured and well-paced manner, which somehow doesn't happen during normal conversations, only when I'm trying to write my thoughts down.

That being said, as someone who keeps their hands on the keyboard a dozen hours a day, of course I would love to find a way to type much, much faster and more accurately. I bet it comes in very handy when taking notes during Zoom meetings, etc., but my vim-muscle memory freaks out even thinking of having to rebind hjkl keys to something else. I wonder if vimmers who switched to Dvorak or Colemak can share their perspective. I've never gotten brave enough to give them a try, always felt like a waste of time for questionable benefit, but that's probably how most people think about vim-navigation, which has become an inextricable part of my keyboard workflow and I am very grateful for my younger self for learning vim-navigation.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#95

Post by anikom15 »

I can type in Dvorak, Qwerty, Zhuyin, and Kana direct input. If you are a slow typist, the problem is not the layout. It is an overreliance on looking at the keys and not taking the time to learn the layout by muscle memory. My keys only have labels for Qwerty but I can touch type in four different formats because I forced myself to use them. That process works. The individual layout does not matter much. How ergonomic the keys are also doesn't matter much. The limit is likely you.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#96

Post by justsomehnguy »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #70
justsomehnguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard This is what puzzles me most of the mechanical keyboard market: you can have whatever shit cramped in on a 60%/75% keyboard but the spacebar is still the long slab. Eg: Shurikey Hanzo 001 65% is especially... bold in this

What puzzles me about the mechanical keyboard market is why they go for the small keyboards to begin with. I can't imagine anyone has a desk so small that the handful of inches shaved off really makes a difference. So why subject oneself to having to relearn all the muscle memory, and the lack of useful keys? It makes no sense to me.

There are a lot of full-sized keyboards there aka 100%, for example look at Keychron, there are 39 100% and 30 96% along with some variants.

But the obsession with As N=1 I can tell what despite what I ended with K3 Pro (it's 75%) accidentally I'm pretty happy with it because it's compact enough what I can toss it in the laptop bag (though rarely) with my 14" or postman-like[3] with an 8" Android tablet but I still do have the function keys (I was aiming at 65% at first), don't need another keyboard at the desk and 65% isn't that much smaller than 75% despite the looks.

EDIT: oh and don't forget what 90% of the market is just [stupid] fashion anyway, you can't be a serious about MK, DIY and all that when you can buy "solid mega gaming mechanical keyboard with cool anime girl themed keycaps and 95 modes of RGB backlight! (only 3 keycaps btw, but it's not mentioned)" for less than $50 not only from no-name (or RJELTHKETG) Chinese shop but from the big names too.

[0] https://www.keychron.com/collections/all-keyboards

[1] from the home to Starbucks and back making a lot of photos and selfies in process, if you understand what I mean

[2] https://www.keychron.com/collections/keychron-k-pro-series-k...

[3] albeit it's thinner and vertical https://www.victorinox.com/en/Products/Travel-Gear/Backpacks...

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#97

Post by HankStallone »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #70
justsomehnguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard This is what puzzles me most of the mechanical keyboard market: you can have whatever shit cramped in on a 60%/75% keyboard but the spacebar is still the long slab. Eg: Shurikey Hanzo 001 65% is especially... bold in this

What puzzles me about the mechanical keyboard market is why they go for the small keyboards to begin with. I can't imagine anyone has a desk so small that the handful of inches shaved off really makes a difference. So why subject oneself to having to relearn all the muscle memory, and the lack of useful keys? It makes no sense to me.

Yeah, I got a compact keyboard once because I was focused on other features. Never again. Give me all the keys.

My favorite keyboard was the one I had about 1996, but the "retro" IBM-style keyboards are awfully pricey these days.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#98

Post by alpaca128 »

adornKey wrote: post #85
mechanicum wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s about hand movement, not desk space. The “missing” keys are on additional layers reached via a modifier key, or by overloading keys on tap/hold, or by increasingly esoteric methods the smaller the board gets: chording, tap dance, etc. They’re typically no less accessible than capital letters, while allowing you to keep your fingers on the home row. For me, the additional keys on my larger keyboards rarely prove…

On the other hand there is spatial memory. Overloading things has some downsides - it adds more possibilities for errors - and makes muscle memory complicated. In a lot of software those extra function keys are well used, easily go into muscle memory and help to safe a lot of time.

I actually make fewer errors and in some cases reach higher speeds when typing a lot of special symbols as everything is reachable without moving my hands and I arranged all special symbols in a way that makes sense to me. Muscle memory works perfectly fine, with the difference that I don't need to make blind error prone hand movements across the keyboard to use arrow keys etc.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#99

Post by alpaca128 »

knorker wrote: post #75
alpaca128 wrote: post #13

The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others.…

The much reduced hand movement is extremely comfortable, paying dividends every day. And it fixed my RSI. Of course over long periods of time we're bottlenecked by our brains. But the things to write come in bursts, and typing speed blocks there. Also transcribing what someone is saying, needs high speed. My experience completely contradicts your assertions.

The part about hand movement confuses me. On qwerty you can reach all letters without moving the hands. On both qwerty and dvorak you still need to move or stretch the hands to reach backspace, arrow keys, escape etc. So how does dvorak reduce hand movement?

> the things to write come in bursts

In short bursts I can reach higher speeds than what I can maintain over a period of time. It's fast enough for me.

> transcribing what someone is saying, needs high speed

That's a very specific use-case and I wouldn't type fast enough for that no matter what layout. At that point I'd probably learn stenography instead.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#100

Post by alpaca128 »

adornKey wrote: post #84
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What puzzles me about the mechanical keyboard market is why they go for the small keyboards to begin with. I can't imagine anyone has a desk so small that the handful of inches shaved off really makes a difference. So why subject oneself to having to relearn all the muscle memory, and the lack of useful keys? It makes no sense to me.

Less things to connect, less switches, less caps, ... I think it's mostly about manufacturing cost. If you build a keyboard yourself, you're glad if you have to solder less. So for sure any prototype of a new design will start small. If you go full size price goes up a lot. For usability alone those small sizes don't make much sense in an office or on a desk.

> For usability alone those small sizes don't make much sense

They do. Having every key reachable without hand movement is quite comfortable. Switching to and using arrow keys is as fast as typing a capital letter with shift.

But it's not everyone's cup of tea, just like Dvorak seems to be great for some people here and pointless for others.

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