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Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

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Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#91

Post by fnordpiglet »

stavros wrote: post #53
talles wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since reading code is harder than writing it, Reading bad code is harder than writing bad code. Reading good code is easier than writing good code.

I beg to differ.

This is the sign of seniority IMO. First you learn to write code. Then you learn to write code that can be read. Then you learn to modify code. Then you learn to read other people’s code. Then you learn to modify other people’s code. Then you learn to own code regardless of who reads or writes it.

At this point in my career 35 years in I find reading and writing code whether I wrote it or other did irrelevant. Bad or good code, it’s all the same. By far the most effective work I do involves reading a lot of complex code written by many people over many years and seeing the exact one line to change or improve.

I find LLM assisted coding very similar frankly. I’ve finished maybe 20 projects or more on the last seven months on my own time that I never would have been able to do in my lifetime for want of free time to learn minutia in stuff I am not familiar with. The parts it get hung up on I’m able with quick inspection to recognize and unwedge it, just like any junior engineer. The junior engineers also are often much better versed in XYZ library than I am.

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#92

Post by theshrike79 »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #91
stavros wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I beg to differ.

This is the sign of seniority IMO. First you learn to write code. Then you learn to write code that can be read. Then you learn to modify code. Then you learn to read other people’s code. Then you learn to modify other people’s code. Then you learn to own code regardless of who reads or writes it. At this point in my career 35 years in I find reading and writing code whether I wrote it or other did irrelevant. Bad or…

This is the thing.

LLM assisted coding ("vibe coding") is just project management.

You ask it to do things, then you check the work to a sufficient degree.

The better the specifications and documentation you give it, the better the result will be. Keeping tasks short and verifiable also helps a lot.

I've written SO many small tools for myself during the last year it's not even funny. Upgraded some shitty late night Python scripts to proper Go applications with unit tests and all, while catching up on my TV shows.

Converted my whole rat's nest of Docker compose files to a single Opentofu declarative setup.

None of this would've gotten done without an LLM assistant.

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#93

Post by theshrike79 »

blackoil wrote: post #89
AlexCoventry wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is reading code harder than writing it?

I think it has to do with mental model. If you already know what to write and it is reasonably complex you'll have a mental model ready and can quickly write it down (now even faster as LLMs autocomplete 3-4 lines at a time). While reading someone else code you'll have to constantly map the code in your mind with code written and have to then compare quality, security and other issues.

I'd say just reading your own code from a few years back will be as hard as reading someone else's.

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#94

Post by theshrike79 »

manwe150 wrote: post #86
ryandrake wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still have doubts but I am warming up to Claude Code. Sometimes it gets in these ruts where it tries something wrong, gets shown it's wrong, keeps digging, and can't even explain how its failed suggestions could even work. Other times, it seems to reproduce the kinds of insights (and even judgment) that I'd expect out of an actual practitioner. After suggesting code to fix problems, I always ask it to explain the c…

It seems to be just playing the “yes and” improv game with you. You might want to also try prompting it against the same suggestions and see if it changes to follow your lead or continues to hold the original opinion.

But was it wrong?

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#95

Post by theshrike79 »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #37
cdrini wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best research I've seen on this is: - Threatening or tipping a model generally has no significant effect on benchmark performance. - Prompt variations can significantly affect performance on a per-question level. However, it is hard to know in advance whether a particular prompting approach will help or harm the LLM's ability to answer any particular question. https://arxiv.org/abs/2508.00614

That 100% tracks expectation if your technical knowledge exceeds past “believer”. Now… for fun. Look up “best prompting” or “the perfect prompt” on YouTube. Thousands of videos “tips” and “expect recommendations” that are bordering the arcane.

The worst people are just writing D&D Character backstories as agent prompts:

"You are a world-class developer in ..." type of crap.

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#96

Post by stavros »

blackoil wrote: post #89
AlexCoventry wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is reading code harder than writing it?

I think it has to do with mental model. If you already know what to write and it is reasonably complex you'll have a mental model ready and can quickly write it down (now even faster as LLMs autocomplete 3-4 lines at a time). While reading someone else code you'll have to constantly map the code in your mind with code written and have to then compare quality, security and other issues.

Yeah, it's exactly this. Having to create a mental model from the code is much harder than having one and just writing it out.

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#97

Post by kaptainscarlet »

therein wrote: post #59
kaptainscarlet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also had a similar experience. I have become too lazy since I started vibe-coding. My coding has transitioned from coder to code reviewer/fixer vey quickly. Overall I feel like it's a good thing because the last few years of my life has been a repetition of frontend components and api endpoints, which to me has become too monotonous so I am happy to have AI take over that grunt work while I supervise.

The lazy reluctance you feel is atrophy in the making. LLMs induce that.

That's my biggest worry, atrophy. But I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#98

Post by latexr »

kaptainscarlet wrote: post #5
stavros wrote: post #3

I've come to view LLMs as a consulting firm where, for each request, I have a 50% chance of getting either an expert or an intern writing my code, and there's no way to tell which. Sometimes I accept this, and I vibe-code, when I don't care about the result. When I do care about the result, I have to read every line myself. Since reading code is harder than writing it, this takes longer, but LLMs have made me too laz…

I've also had a similar experience. I have become too lazy since I started vibe-coding. My coding has transitioned from coder to code reviewer/fixer vey quickly. Overall I feel like it's a good thing because the last few years of my life has been a repetition of frontend components and api endpoints, which to me has become too monotonous so I am happy to have AI take over that grunt work while I supervise.

> My coding has transitioned from coder to code reviewer/fixer vey quickly. Overall I feel like it's a good thing

Until you lose access to the LLM and find your ability has atrophied to the point you have to look up the simplest of keywords.

> the last few years of my life has been a repetition of frontend components and api endpoints, which to me has become too monotonous

It’s a surprise that so many people have this problem/complaint. Why don’t you use a snippet manager?! It’s lightweight, simple, fast, predictable, offline, and includes the best version of what you learned. We’ve had the technology for many many years.

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#99

Post by latexr »

kaptainscarlet wrote: post #97
therein wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lazy reluctance you feel is atrophy in the making. LLMs induce that.

That's my biggest worry, atrophy. But I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

With atrophy, by the time you get to the bridge you’ll realise it’s too deteriorated to cross and will have to spend a lot of time rebuilding and reinforcing it before you can get to the other side.

Re: Vibe coding as a coding veteran: from 8-bit assembly to English-as-code

#100

Post by realharo »

latexr wrote: post #98
kaptainscarlet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also had a similar experience. I have become too lazy since I started vibe-coding. My coding has transitioned from coder to code reviewer/fixer vey quickly. Overall I feel like it's a good thing because the last few years of my life has been a repetition of frontend components and api endpoints, which to me has become too monotonous so I am happy to have AI take over that grunt work while I supervise.

> My coding has transitioned from coder to code reviewer/fixer vey quickly. Overall I feel like it's a good thing Until you lose access to the LLM and find your ability has atrophied to the point you have to look up the simplest of keywords. > the last few years of my life has been a repetition of frontend components and api endpoints, which to me has become too monotonous It’s a surprise that so many people have thi…

>Until you lose access to the LLM and find your ability has atrophied to the point you have to look up the simplest of keywords.

Realistically, that's probably never going to happen. Expecting it is just like the prepper mindset.

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