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Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

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Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#91

How are the existing PMs using AI to make themselves more efficient?

You say that, but my experience has been that product managers love nothing more than feeding entire webpages/specs/slack threads/email exchanges/whatever into ChatGPT and getting the 'summary' of it, and then pasting that into Jira and having the AI "make tickets" from it

The 'more efficient' part is where reasonable people disagree, a lot, and very often, in these threads

Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#92

"This tool 10x the productivity of software engineers" "GREAT! That means we can fire the people who do the actual work, and replace them with MBA robots, who neither understand nor care about making a good product" Pardon my pessimism, but in my whole career, I have never met a PM who actual did the work of driving the product vision. Most were just middlemen shuttling information between management, marketing, desi…

> Most were just middlemen shuttling information between management, marketing, design, and engineering. well, in my experience as a developer integration between different systems with different views about how things should work is often the most challenging part of the job, so what you describe sounds like it would be difficult.

In my experience PMs often work at a very high level. How things shold work are defined in a incosistent way when we take into account all the user flows, subtelness and restrictions of other systems. So programmers end up doing a significant chunk of the work by refining the specs so that the thing actually makes sense.

Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#93
post #38
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect somebody could. But why? Do you need a new XML library? I don't. And if you don't need one, why write one? If there is no specific use case in mind, how do you even determine what dimension "good" is measured on?

XML is used extensively everywhere. Multibillion companies depend on libxml2 which historically had multitude of vulnerabilities, see https://ubuntu.com/security/cves?package=libxml2 Most of the Internet ifra depends on libxml2, major vendors like Juniper and Cisco use it. To my knowledge Android use it as well, Naturally, with the advancement of AI, one would expect XML would be first thing to rewrite, given that li…

Clearly that's not the use you have for a new XML library. It's a use you're imagining somebody else would have for it. And because you're just imagining the use case, you've failed to think through what "good" would actually mean in that use case.

To replace libxml2 across these ecosystems you would need it to be API-, ABI, and probably bug-compatible with a decrepit old C library. That's not something anyone or anything can write from just the XML spec.

Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#94
As a PM:

- in professional settings, I internally feel more pressured to complete product thinking 'faster'. I don't yet see product management being the bottleneck though, it is still code (or getting people together) - in personally settings/side projects, def. What to build has become so much more important. But I also feel it has taken the pressure a Lil off bad ideas, when the cost of building has reduced.

Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#95
post #19

Coding as such is seldom a bottleneck to begin with. How many times have you been in a conversation along the lines of "we have every detail of the product figured out, but we need another month for the coders to finish writing the code"? The bottlenecks are almost always elsewhere. Design, quality assurance and debugging, art assets, localizations, hiring, performance management, you name it. And to be fair, AI can…

> How many times... Literally all the time? Every single month? I am struggling to understand your perspective. In my existence, the bottleneck is always the coding. The development team has a backlog that could keep them busy for years. Meanwhile, everyone else -- QA, localization, whatever -- operates at whatever pace the code gets delivered. Never in my entire life have I been in the situation where the engineerin…

[deleted]

Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#97
post #59
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the nomenclature is malevolently vague. PM conflates product management with project management and they are not the same.

But what's the difference? Does anyone actually know?

Product Management = Big picture product vision. Features and Priorities. Market trends/strategy, Voice of customer

Project Management = Day to day to execution, logistics, resources, schedules. Scheduling meetings, sending out meeting minutes etc

Program Management = Team management towards delivering business goals/product launches on schedule

Where its tricky is the differentiation between project and program management. IMO we dont really need both terms or both roles, causes uneccessary/unnatural separation of responsibilities

Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#98
post #57

Andrew Ng has had a really sad career trajectory to a point where it's hard to take him seriously anymore. When I started in ML the very first course I took was actually Andrew Ng's course and it was amazingly good. But the past few years whenever he pops up, it always seems to be him repeating the talking points of some AI company that's paying him money. It's like seeing your hero turn into a complete sellout, shov…

You haven't made any quantitative statements. Low effort personal attack. Who is paying him here? From your comment, you can't even tell the topic, let alone the actual idea he is putting forth.

Just go and look at literally anything Andrew Ng has put out in the last 2 years.

Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fully curated backlog with complete specifications that is kept up to date with current changes in the product/industry? I've never had the privilege of working in an environment like that.

Obviously not every item in the backlog has a full design, for work that might be years out. But yes, the next few items for the team to work on should always have the necessary specifications to start work. Whether it's UX mocks or a requirements document or whatever. Having that stuff ready to go is a primary job of the PM who manages the backlog. Obviously the engineering team then has to break it down further int…

I’ve been bottlenecked by that middle part quite often. A design isn’t finished, we’re awaiting user feedback or testing, specs are done but waiting for sign off from required parties, etc..

I’ve never had a shortage of work as an engineer, but that doesn’t mean that work has always been perfectly optimized to business priorities - there’s plenty of other bottlenecks in the process that are not coding.

Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management

#100
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't made any quantitative statements. Low effort personal attack. Who is paying him here? From your comment, you can't even tell the topic, let alone the actual idea he is putting forth.

He has a startup "AI" Fund: https://www.businessinsider.com/andrew-ng-vibe-coding-unfort... So, at least his investors that he convinces are paying him. I do not know if he has other engagements in that area like speaker's fees etc.

In addition, here are "courses" that he peddles nowadays: https://www.deeplearning.ai/courses/

If you look into the courses, each one is basically a ~1 hour infomercial made in collaboration with a commercial company that is selling a product.

Just to pick one off the top, here's "Fast Prototyping of GenAI Apps with Streamlit"

Description: "Build and iterate GenAI apps in hours instead of days! Start with a simple chatbot, then add prompt engineering and RAG powered by Snowflake’s secure data and LLM services, then push your prototype to Snowflake or Streamlit Community Cloud for instant feedback and quick improvement."

Instructor: "Dr. Chanin Nantasenamat is a Senior Developer Advocate at Snowflake, where he creates educational content for Streamlit and teaches developers to build interactive data apps."

Every one of his "courses" are like this. It's fucking disgraceful.

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