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Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

nadia.xyz

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Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#91

Post by gblargg »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #77
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Authenticity doesn't mean you act in a way that the majority approves of, in fact it's often the opposite case. It also doesn't make any presuppositions about the morality of specific behaviour. To be authentic is to be your true self, despite what others think which requires bravery and that is something people admire. If something is considered shameful is a subjective judgement about behaviours that may or may not…

[flagged]

I don't think you understood the point of the comment you replied to. It was two-fold: what authentic means, and why people prefer imperfect people to be authentic than present a false image. Even your disrespectful response shows its value: you can get feedback that might actually help you improve.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#92

Post by dana-s »

b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #53
apical_dendrite wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's shamelessness. Shame exists to keep us from engaging in antisocial behavior. If your true self is a liar, a cheat, a cruel person, then you should absolutely be afraid to be your true self.

That's still authenticity though. What's not authentic is people who conceal those aspects of themselves, and it's also far more dangerous.

I authentically believe that when I'm angry, I should avoid talking to people in that state, because the me who's seeing things through anger is not a more authentic me than a drunk me would. That said, if you're a liar and conceal that? Yeah worse than being one all the time.

Authenticity can be good, bad, mixed bag, if someone is in reality a liar and decide to be so? Authentically hope they keep themselves away from me.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#93

Post by keybored »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #79
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

70–90% of people have functional object impermanence, and at least 50% have no inner dialogue no self awareness, no reflection. just impulse. me, me, me. blasting music in public, talking at max volume, slamming doors. taking 20 mins to use an ATM when it takes me 30 seconds. and so on.

A master Buddhist meditator deep in meditation might also have no inner dialogue.

I don’t really get the significance of this No Inner Dialogue meme.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#94

Post by achierius »

mmaunder wrote: post #58
aanet wrote: post #30

This is perhaps the best articulation on the rise of certain cantankerous people... in social media / politics / The metaphor of the game is a good one for general understanding (though the Signaling / Counters-signaling paper is a TIL for me) I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? (My own way o…

A return to formality is the antidote, I’m afraid. As austere and priggish as it may seem. You may see brands and influencers emerging that gain traction with a kind of 1950s post WWII flavor of seriousness and formality. I’m not suggesting social conservatives. More the presentation and packaging of ideas and their purveyors. Formal instead of slovenly, polite vs obnoxious, eloquent vs simplistic, cultured vs vulgar…

All ideology. No real substance, just the "facade" of seriousness, detached from any underlying reality thereof. Wouldn't that be even sillier than what we have today?

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#95

Post by arkey »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #66
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

> people who play music/video aloud on public transport

But that's not being authentic, that's being plain rude, and there should be a difference.

You can be authentic and still respect boundaries and be considerate towards other people.

And on the other side, if being rude is your form of authenticity, then you're not authentic, you're just another rude person, probably following a specific type of common behaviour.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#96

Post by arkey »

b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #53
apical_dendrite wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's shamelessness. Shame exists to keep us from engaging in antisocial behavior. If your true self is a liar, a cheat, a cruel person, then you should absolutely be afraid to be your true self.

That's still authenticity though. What's not authentic is people who conceal those aspects of themselves, and it's also far more dangerous.

In this paradigm you describe, should we then strive to be authentic or should we refrain?

Don't you think this would open the doors to an endless amount of bad behaviours?

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#97

Post by pjc50 »

lovich wrote: post #33
aanet wrote: post #30

This is perhaps the best articulation on the rise of certain cantankerous people... in social media / politics / The metaphor of the game is a good one for general understanding (though the Signaling / Counters-signaling paper is a TIL for me) I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? (My own way o…

> I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? It’s called government regulation. There’s whole fields of research on how to solve an arbitrarily complicated Prisoner’s Dilemma. A lot of people are allergic to the idea because they don’t want to have limits on their behavior, only on others or on no o…

The problem is now coming from the top: Trump is the ultimate victory of shamelessness. It evolved like antibiotic resistant MRSA. Which is why demanding a government solution is meaningless.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#98

Post by svara »

nickpinkston wrote: post #8

I kind of agree with Nadia's analysis of what's happening, but it's a fucking cursed reality. Here's hoping for a New New Sincerity to bring us back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_sincerity

I didn't know this term but it really resonates. A general lack of seriousness in nearly everything is a defining aspect of our time, it seems.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#99

Post by abc123abc123 »

At least in politics, I'd argue that it is not shamelessness. It is a reaction to the fact that our political nobility have sunk so low in terms of achievement and results, that they made a mockery of democracy.

As a reaction, the public makes a mockery of them. As a bonus, getting a politicians that speaks his mind in the common way, is an added spice! Seeing the revulsion in the faces of the political nobility when Trump opens his mouth, gives many satisfaction.

So in politics, this is a sign of health. It is a kind of catharsis. Trump was one of the first in the modern era, and he'll get copy cats, and the strategy will then start to lose its efficiency, but, it will have recalibrated politics away from the previous state where it was a toy for the nobility and commoners were not welcome.

This is also something they fear. That commoners, not part of the nobility, might gain entrance to their domain.

So this is a healthy sign for democracy!

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#100

Post by tudorizer »

b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

You might be applying some reverse psychology by claiming shameless == authentic. Does that translate to having shame (in the interpretation of being aware or norms and being considerate to those around) == not authentic?

This "freedom to be themselves" works very well when priviledge is at stake.

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