Live data from Hacker News

Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

blog.mozilla.org

91–100 of 147 posts

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#91
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own the hard drive. How I choose to arrange the little magnetic islands on the platter is my business. I do not exchange money to possess a copy of it, but sometimes I have to wait three days while libgen.li is doing whatever the fuck it's doing (being DDOSed, having Russian FSB datamine the logs, downtime to have all 14 million epubs get their covers replaced with the fuzziest 141x296 cover image that's a bad scan…

> I own the hard drive. How I choose to arrange the little magnetic islands on the platter is my business. Most people do not agree, in that they think arranging the magnetic fields in your drive to represent and store child pornography should be punishable. It isn’t a stretch then to presume that storage of other types of data might also be proscribed.

> Most people do not agree, in that they think arranging the magnetic fields in your drive to represent and store child pornography should be punishable.

I do not do that. Thus, the example is irrelevant. Though it might actually be a good example as to how people use excuses like that to violate others' liberty even when they're not engaged in that particular reprehensible activity. Even before you finished reading that sentence, the little "but you might" thought popped up in your head.

>It isn’t a stretch then to presume that storage of other types of data might also be proscribed.

I don't dispute that it is proscribed. I simply do not care. When copyright maximalists have to stoop to "what about child pornography" arguments, I think it is more than reasonable that people simply stop listening right at that point. Nothing else they say can or should ever matter.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#92

My question is how do you enforce anything like this? Cookie banners, the accessibility ruling, and now this. We've had to adhere to the rulings at work; but when I ask the lawyers; "how do you enforce this?" they say as long as you make a best effort you are fine. Wasted effort.

how do you think any ban works exactly?

When prostitution is banned, do you think they install a cop in every bedroom to make sure there is no money exchange?

When drugs are banned, do you think they put a device in every person that beeps if they ingest drugs and a SWAT team Air drops on their house?

When a harmful business practices are banned, do you think a member of a regulatory body gets to attend or review every meeting and decision in every company to make sure that practice doesn't happen?

When graffiti is banned, do you think a cop joins you when you buy a spray can until you dispose of it?

When vaping on airplanes is banned, do you think they do a cavity search on every passenger to make sure no one is sneaking a juul and puffing into a towel?

When dumping industrial toxic waste into rivers is banned, do you think we install 4k cameras on all rivers to track whats being dumped there?

If this is your first time in a human society, welcome. Unlike math, nothing we do in society is a 100%, but we've been doing it for 10,000 years. You will demand "unenforceable" laws if you like them and scoff at ones you don't like. You already know how and will fit right in.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#93

I can't judge the legal aspects. But a significant point here is that Adblock Plus allows you do pay them to get preferential treatment for your ads. I don't know how much this part affects the legal issues here, but for me that is quite a different situation than a pure ad blocker. There is a coercive element here, if your ad blocker is used widely enough and you take money for preferential treatment.

Is this a case for steel-manning? We know what this is about and what's at stake.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#94
There is not much need for a company like the one selling adblock plus to springer etc. I don't see any court going after ublock origin and there is no reason that ublock origin would be threatened by this in any way. However, the actions from google with manifest v3 are a real threat, as well as any obligation to use real name accounts to access services like newspapers or youtube.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#95
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is not, nor am I, but I don’t see a reason you and I shouldn’t get the same legal protections as other groups. What about blind people who pipe the output of a screen through text-to-speech? Or people with epilepsy who can’t use flashy screens? Or someone who needs to enlarge print or change its contrast? There are plenty of medical reasons to need to alter their browser presentations.

> He is not, nor am I, but I don’t see a reason you and I shouldn’t get the same legal protections as other groups But what ARE those legal protections? That's the really complicated bit isn't it? ADA does not simply mandate anything anyone could imagine at any price, and there still isn't a huge amount of caselaw when it comes to the web. FWIW in this specific case I think there is some basis, but it doesn't seem cl…

I think the arguments are even stronger in this case. I’m not asking the website owner to make any accommodations to me at all. I’m not asking them to change a single line of code or tweak a single setting. A physical business owner may not own the sidewalk in front of their business while still being legally obligated to maintain it, and I’m not even asking that.

I’m asking that they don’t go out of their way to take expensive and complex technical or legal steps that prevent me from bringing my own accommodations with me, ones that have zero effect on other visitors and cost the owner zero time, effort, and money.

Yes, I’m sure they’d prefer I watched the squares of pixels they sold to 3rd parties. I also bet they’d prefer not to have to pay to install a wheelchair ramp, but they don’t get to make that decision, either.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#96
post #8

If the user is legally obligated to allow the ad on their device then the site owner must be legally accountable for what the ad does, for example if it's malware. No passing this on to the ad-network. Their code, their copyright, their malware distribution.

Surprised to see this downvoted; I hadn’t even thought of it but it actually seems like an eminently reasonable take. The only logical conclusion, even. How could you argue otherwise? Would love to hear a down voter’s dissent because I’m not seeing it.

It's ultimately still supporting this hostile paradigm wherein corpos legally dictate the processing your user agent is allowed to do on your personal computer, just also grasping at straws trying to bargain for some logically-consistent justice within that paradigm. In reality, this type of support only helps the corpos get the overall legal regime they desire, and then if any such lesser obligations actually do get imposed as well, they will just find ways to weasel out of them later.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#97
The ruling (in German) is available online.¹

The supreme court actually has rejected most of Axel Springer's² arguments and limited the revision to a single question (AFAICT, IANAL): Are the news websites in question some kind of computer program (protected under Section 8 of the UrhG³). The supreme court argues that the lower court did not sufficiently discuss this question in their ruling.

The supreme court explicitly notes that the lower court should also consider whether Springer actually has the sole rights to the 'computer program'.

Some thoughts:

a) As the supreme court mentioned, Springer might only own (exclusive) copyright to some parts of the computer program. It seems that they embed a lot of other JS code, e.g., Google stuff. This might mean that Springer needs to show that ABP actually modifies Springer's code. If ABP modifies e.g. AdSense code or the code of an open source library that Springer's websites use, Springer's copyright might not be infringed at all.

b) In German copyright law, only works are protected that are created by a human author. (Obviously, the author can also use software to create a protected work.) Given that a lot of JS/CSS code is written by automated rules (or LLMs), rights holders might need to prove that an actual human wrote the code.

c) As posted elsewhere in the thread: the German copyright law explicitly allows people with limited vision or with limited reading ability (not defined precisely in the law) to use assistive technology in order to transfer a work into a more accessible version⁴. So, ad-blocker companies might argue that they are just providing assistive technology to people with diagnosed ADHD. Copyright holders would then need to go after the users of such software.

(A mentioned above: I am not a lawyer. Copyright law is complicated and interpretations are evolving)

¹)https://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/do...

²) big German media conglomerate, not to be confused with SpringerNature

³) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/BJNR012730965.html#B...

⁴) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/__45b.html

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#98
post #87
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. This is nothing different than "reddit boycott" or "politician x gets elected and I'm out of here" Sounds nice. But isn't remotely feasible

It absolutely is for me, but I'm probably twice your age and use the internet only leisurely. I don't do social media, I don't use a smart phone, so yeah, I'm certainly an edge case, but no internet would be fine for me easily.

I'm totally with you on this one. And I was an early tech adopter, using a dialup modem (long distance!) to get access to Usenet news.

If a site has ads, and I can't block them, I'm not using that site.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#99
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true - you have received a property right to the copy of the content and can legally alter or destroy it. A license in the book cannot override your property right. You may encounter issues if you attempt to distribute the altered copy, but that's not at issue here.

You can even cut out parts of the text to re-sell, which is exactly what press clipping services did for newspapers. No copies were made, so no copyright infringement (that simple logic was fine until someone managed to get DRM-circumvention added to copyright laws). "The first press clipping agency in London was established in 1852 ... Early clipping services employed women to scan periodicals for mentions of specif…

Careful. It's not that simple in the US.

See Mirage Editions v. Albuquerque A.R.T. Co., 856 F.2d 1341 (1988) [1] and Lee v. A.R.T. Co., 125 F.3d 580 (1997) [2].

The first, in the 9th circuit, involved a company whose business was:

> 1) purchasing artwork prints or books including good quality artwork page prints therein; 2) gluing each individual print or page print onto a rectangular sheet of black plastic material exposing a narrow black margin around the print; 3) gluing the black sheet with print onto a major surface of a rectangular white ceramic tile; 4) applying a transparent plastic film over the print, black sheet and ceramic tile surface; and 5) offering the tile with artwork mounted thereon for sale in the retail market.

The appeals court found that this was a copyright infringement.

The second, in the 7th circuit, involved the same defendants who bought an artists' notecards and small lithographs from a retail art store and:

> mounted the works on ceramic tiles (covering the art with transparent epoxy resin in the process) and resold the tiles.

The 7th circuit found that this was not an infringement.

There were some differences in the cases, in particular in the 9th circuit case the defendant was buying art books and cutting out the pictures to mount and sell but in the second case they were buying individual notecards and lithographs to mount and sell.

As far as I know this has never reached the Supreme Court, and neither case has been overturned in its circuit by subsequent cases in that circuit, and so Mirage is still the law in the 9th and Lee still the law in the 7th. In other circuits there have been district court cases that dealt with this issue, but it has not reached their appellate courts.

[1] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/856...

[2] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/125...

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#100
post #85

Why should I as a user get exposed to garbage that I don't care about in addition to the actual content I'm interested in? Well, one possible answer is that the content provider only actually provides that content under the condition that I look at the ads. After all, a lot of content providers are businesses and they don't like to give out content for free. My stance has always been that for 99% of the stuff I consu…

I’m sympathetic to the idea that someone has to pay if they want to keep the site online. It costs money to create the site’s content, even if the marginal cost to deliver it to a visitor is approximately $0.00. But there’s an astounding amount of laziness in their approach. Seriously, renting rectangles on a site is the only way to get paid by non-paying visitors? Hogwash.

For instance, they could be running affiliate links to online stores. “We reviewed these laptops: click here and we’ll get a commission.” “But that compromises our integrity!”, they might counter. But so does renting out space to advertisers! I genuinely don’t see the honest version as, well, less honest.

Post reply on HN