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Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

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Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> German company now has 0 in revenue, wind it down and leave. You forgot about employees. If German employment law is anything like the Dutch one, then it means you can't wind down the company while you have employees. They may refuse to leave. Firing them may be subject to government approval, who may also refuse.

Dumb American here but that sounds like a few steps too far in employee protections. A business can't even die without government approval?

It's not dumb. You're not allowed to close a business in the US until you check a lot of boxes, too. You have to show you don't have outstanding debts and so on. The banks won't let you do that because it's an easy way to escape debt. That's exactly why bankruptcy is an extended legal process.

If an employee is guaranteed X months salary upon notice of layoff in the contract, that's debt you have to resolve before you legally close. If you have a 5 year lease agreement for the property, that's also debt you have to resolve. It's exactly the same idea.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#92
The developed world is increasingly facing a funding crisis brought on by this propaganda that if we tax corporations and the very wealthy then they'll leave.

One of the most farcical examples of this is the decades-long race to the bottom on business taxes and incentives between Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas. For the non-Americans out there, this is basically one city but it sits at the border of two states. So the two states are constantly torching money to lure businesses that play this system and simply go back and forth.

I believe this situation will come to an end and there are several reasons for this:

1. For the EU in particular, reliance on US tech giants is increasingly becoming a security issue. The Eu will increasingly wants homegrown alternatives so the option of leaving will simply not exist because you could leave but then you lose the EU as a customer;

2. For a long time multinational companies used transfer pricing to avoid paying taxes. What's transfer pricing? Let's say you buy a sofa in China for @200, ship it to the US for another $200 and then sell it for $1000. You've made a gross profit of $600. What if instead you have a subsidiary in Vanuatu, which has no corporate income tax (AFAIK), and it buys the sofas for $400 and sell them to the US company for $950? Well, you've booked $550 in profit where there's no tax and only $50 profit where there is.

That's technically illegal. It's often-called transfer pricing manipulation.

So what do tech giants like Google do? They sell their IP to an Irish subsidiary. There's a nominal process to make sure this is done for a "fair" value (according to the IRS). Then they pay royalties to their own Irish subsidiary to shift profits to a lower tax regime. Previously, this created a problem because they couldn't repatriate the money without paying (then) 30%+ corporate taxes but this all changed in 2017 with a tax holiday and a change to how this kind of income was treated. The net result was way lower than 30% net tax however, even with Biden's 15% minimum tax (which was a good thing) that came later.

What's the difference between this kind of profit-shifting with IP and transfer pricing manipulation? Absolutely nothing, except one is illegal and one isn't.

3. Revenue will increasigly have to be taxed in the source country. For example, Google I believe books all UK ad contracts through Ireland such that the UK subsidiary has essentially zero income to tax. I believe governments will increasingly crack down on this such that if something is sold in the UK, it's taxed by the UK; and

4. While individuals may be able to notionally "leave", assets generally can't. Land can't be moved overseas. Natural resources that are mined or fished or logged can't be moved overseas. So it's really an empty threat.

I'm really sick of this "the businesses will leave" propaganda.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#93
Berlin wall of tax? Seriously? Nobody gets shot trying to cross the border here and it's clear that the ones who can afford a decent financial advisory will get around most of the regulations anyways. I don't see how this business economist whining belongs on hn.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#94
post #92

The developed world is increasingly facing a funding crisis brought on by this propaganda that if we tax corporations and the very wealthy then they'll leave. One of the most farcical examples of this is the decades-long race to the bottom on business taxes and incentives between Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas. For the non-Americans out there, this is basically one city but it sits at the border of two…

>3. Revenue will increasigly have to be taxed in the source country. For example, Google I believe books all UK ad contracts through Ireland such that the UK subsidiary has essentially zero income to tax. I believe governments will increasingly crack down on this such that if something is sold in the UK, it's taxed by the UK;

Wasn’t this only a thing while the UK was in the EU, because the EU expressly allowed it?

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#95
I wasn't joking at all when I previously said in [0], moves like this is how to lose and now this is another reason why tech founders do not start companies in Europe and when a company gets too big, especially in Germany.

Just don't be surprised to see a decline in tax revenue when countries like Germany chase the wealth creators out of the country with high taxes + exit taxes.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44134832

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#96
post #61

There's a note at the end > You could, of course, sell or wind down your company, which would solve all problems outlined here. But this is not an option for most entrepreneurs. For a software business, you could presumably: - Incorporate a company in your country of choice - Transfer subscribers from German company to new foreign company (depending on payments provider, this can be a massive effort, for example, not…

It applies to any company you own, regardless of where the company is incorporated

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#97
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you would apply the same logic to a family car, or the clothing you bought? Should they tax the value of your medical degree when you leave the country?

Yes. Remember that in Germany you don't pay for University degrees. High education isn't just for a wealthy minority.

That doesn't make the degree worthless, surely

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#98
post #3

Is there a look back period? What stops me from selling my business to my buddy the day I leave and then buying it back the day after?

The idea is that leaving the country is taxed as if you sold your shares.

So selling them presumably doesn't help.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#99
For a less emotional explanation of exit tax see https://www.grantthornton.de/en/insights/exit-tax-topic-hub.

> The purpose of this rule is to tax the increase in value of these shares that came about in Germany but has not yet been realised before they are able to escape the reach of German taxes by the move abroad.

Doesn't sound all that crazy to me.

Also, the proposed analogy to the Berlin wall feels quite pathetic for those that have actually lived behind it.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#100

When businesses are fleeing, you're doing something very wrong.

Not necessarily.

As USA is the main destination for IPO, wouldn't many German companies naturally leave?

Also once you are successful you can afford to pay the costs to arrange the companies affairs in a tax efficient manner e.g. utilise low tax regions with the EU such as Luxembourg and wider world.

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