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What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

worldofmatthew.com

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Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#91
[Edit: I've been chronically online for a long time and seen this argument hashed out many times, and this blog post is one of the shallowest considerations of it. For context, the UK's online safety act has just gone into force and Reddit has switched all NSFW-tagged subreddits to require proof of ID for UK visitors. There's a lot of interesting argument to be had about government overreach, subs which are non-pornographic being included, the loss of pseudonymity when tying an account to a real world ID, the people who are "proving" their age with AI generated images, the mass sending of UK PassPort data to 3rd party American companies (not even to Reddit); "but who can say what is or isn't rude? Hah!" is ... basic. Anyone can say. Most people can easily say and be right often enough to be useful. Observing that people disagree on some edge cases is not an argument.].

> "It’s simply too subjective (teenagers will find almost any nudity sexual, no matter its context). How does anyone decide if any nudity is age-appropriate? Especially at scale."

OK (blog author) has made the case that one cannot decide, the government has gone with "ban by default". If you (blog author) object to that, can you make a case why that's bad? You wrote "apart from 'think of the children' being a classic call to censorship" so you've closed off that route for your objection which may have been a strong one.

If you work then you have given your employer proof of ID for things like showing your right to work in the UK, getting a paycheck, or a criminal record check; so the principle of an employee proving their age seems out of scope for you to object to - at least you haven't made a case that people need to be able to work anonymously. [Although the method of proving one's age is up for argument, it's not this argument].

It boils down to: if you can't decide, do you allow by default or block by default? Government has gone for default-block, blog author seems to be taking the position that default-allow is better but has not made a case why.

By comparison we tried that with digital security - for years computer systems were default-allow and it caused a lot of problems and we've had to reengineer them to have firewalls, ports closed, seperated user accounts, minimal user account permissions, minimal data-execute permissions, minimal employee access to company systems, minimal access from one app into another's data, then in each case grant-as-necessary with proof of identity and audit logging that it happened. Result? Reduced problems, reduced hacks, reduced crime, limited blast radius of mistakes.

It used to be that we made any product and sold it, and over thousands of years we got fed up of saying "okay you can't make bread padded with sawdust", "you can't sell arsenic wallpaper", "you can't sell deathly metabolism boosters as diet pills", "you can't sell public buildings that are a death trap", "you can't say your product was approved by The King if it wasn't" and flipped to say "you can only sell medicine and treatments which are generally recognised as safe, or you prove case-by-case that they are safe", "your advertising must tell the truth". And that's better.

We humans also used to be naked by default, and over time we've switched to being clothed-by-default. Occasionally it results in people having to cover their genitals when they'd rather not, but mostly it's resulted in body protection from sun, heat, cold, brick, concrete, metal, and reduced amount of poop covering communal seats and other surfaces, the ability to carry stuff in pockets and is generally a big win.

Frankly, "here is an edge case hah gotcha" is geek fun for arguing, but a shitty way to decide what to do. If a sorting algorithm sometimes doesn't sort things it's a dealbreaker, but a restaurant which keeps separate raw and cooked fridges, separate chopping boards and knives, and asks the staff to wash their hands with soap before food preparation might have an edge case where they employ someone foreign and dyslexic who cannot read the English sign about hand washing and because of that some customer gets food poisoning is a far far better situation than saying "hah I imagined an edge case therefore let's not have any public health laws, let's just make it a free for all".

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#92

This is a relic mindset from the start of the Internet. The website itself even visually reflects that. Is there a marginal grey area around adult content? Yes. But beyond that margin is a vast ocean of explicit, intentional adult content. As someone who grew up in both the decentralized "new" era of the Internet, and now lives in the hyper localized algo driven version of it... It's all shit. And I'd never want my k…

I want kids to have the same freedom I had.

In my opinion the only sane take in this entire thread. Good on ya.

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#93
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't debating "suggestive". The fine article claimed (and the parent quoted), "Absolutely nothing sexual"; that's what I disagree with. I agree that the photo is not suggestive; in other words, I fully agree that in the picture, she's not "soliciting" or even "provoking" (even without having any actual intent to participate). That's fine. She doesn't have to be suggestive, or to do anything other than exist and b…

So your argument is that because you happen to find the person attractive, the image itself is sexual? That would quickly lead us to classifying 90% of everything on the internet as sexual, as there is a wide range of stuff that makes people aroused, like people having sexual attraction to cars. Maybe being able to discern our own perspectives and sexual preferences from a wider labeling of content might be beneficia…

> So your argument is that because you happen to find the person attractive, the image itself is sexual?

Yes, with one tweak: it's because I find the person sexually attractive. It's not the kind of attractive that urges me to start "socializing" with the person, for example; "trust", "friendship" etc are not my first impressions. My first impression is that I'm horny as heck.

> That would quickly lead us to classifying 90% of everything on the internet as sexual, as there is a wide range of stuff that makes people aroused, like people having sexual attraction to cars.

I'm confused by your repeated allusion to "sexually aroused by cars"; I've never heard of that. Other than that however, 90% of everything everywhere (not just on the internet) is sexual. Absolutely everything is advertized with attractive women (clad to various levels of decency, dependent on the medium), precisely because sex is the #1 drive for men, and so "sex sells" (to men). It may be subliminal, or it may be "in your face", but a huge proportion of all ads is sexual.

> Maybe being able to discern our own perspectives and sexual preferences from a wider labeling of content might be beneficial?

Oh definitely. I have absolutely no personal interest in the "content labeling" debate, as I've not been a consumer for several years now. It's just the fine article's qualification of the picture -- which the author tried to use as a representative, for driving the point home, IIUC -- that I disagreed with.

Also, my English could be failing me here (I'm not a native speaker): you seem to use "sexual" and "arousing" as two (at least somewhat) orthogonal concepts. To me, they mean the same thing: "stuff that makes me horny". If I cared about cars, I guess I might call some cars "exciting", but that's not "arousing". Arousal implies excitement, but not the other way around, in my vocabulary.

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#94
post #65
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naturally stronger animals very often protect weaker ones too, especially within the same species. I know you’re trying to point out a logical fallacy; but I don’t think it is a good reason to ignore the grandparent commenter’s point.

The concept of natural vs. non-natural is a human and largely cultural construct. It’s still a useful word, but it can’t really shoulder the burden of making one argument more rational than the other.

This is off-topic, but I like pointing out that natural does not mean good, especially to hippies at the supermarket who want to pay more for "organic" foods that "aren't full of chemicals". I sympathise with them, but also wish they'd use more appropriate words, and understand the cost of their luxury beliefs.

Tsunamis, earthquakes, flash floods, tornadoes, locust swarms, plagues are "natural". Amanita muscaria, Dendrobatidae and Boa constrictors are "natural" and will fucking kill you.

I think the better distinction is found in Leviathan, contrasting human society (and its set of social contracts) with the "state of nature" - what human life was like before we formed societies:

> In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently no culture of the earth, no navigation nor the use of commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#95
post #38
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an European with non-censored History books in my teenage years, that nudity was... boring. Women just lying in a bench with... dull, bland, faded out colours. I would need far more to get laid.

My anthology book had a few pages from Ulysses by Lob & Pichard. I went to a catholic school.

My daughters went to a Catholic all girls high school. The translated Catallus 16 in Latin class.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus_16

I don’t think anyone considered that the Latin syllabus might be a cause for concern.

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#96
post #18

It’s the checking part that’s the bigger issue to me. Speaks to some weapons grade incompetence at highest levels of government Sending passport scans to random sleezy websites that are likely not even under British jurisdiction is beyond insane

That’s the whole point of digital id. You won’t be sending a passport scan you’ll be sending a verifiable blob of data that says you’re over 18. Is it incompetent to ask for ID to purchase alcohol? Because that’s all this is, but more privacy respecting…

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#97
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And it is a desire to label realistic representations of history such as Maus Dare I ask, wtf is Maus representation of history??

It was an autobiographical comic about the Holocaust? How's that not a representation of history?

Never said it wasn't one. Just never heard of it. Wasn't aware it was considered obscene either. Will look into.

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#98
post #96
post #18

It’s the checking part that’s the bigger issue to me. Speaks to some weapons grade incompetence at highest levels of government Sending passport scans to random sleezy websites that are likely not even under British jurisdiction is beyond insane

That’s the whole point of digital id. You won’t be sending a passport scan you’ll be sending a verifiable blob of data that says you’re over 18. Is it incompetent to ask for ID to purchase alcohol? Because that’s all this is, but more privacy respecting…

Do they have that implementation? When I looked into it I thought you had to send your passport scan to a vendor of some kind?

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be real, everyone feels nudity is inherently sexual, except on HN and probably on reddit where men love to claim that it's not. I don't know if it's virtue-signalling, sexual frustration, or something else. It does sound weird and creepy to me - grown up men who claim that naked women are not arousing, the same men who rally en masse every time pornography censorship is discussed, to complain about freedom of e…

"let's be real" isn't a strong argument tbh; your argument doesn't apply to a lot of cultures. Ever been to a sauna? Nudist areas? Ever seen South-American, African, Indonesian tribes? Whether nudity is considered sexual is cultural, not "inherently", and you claiming that "everyone" feels like it is is highlighting your own blinkered world view. You don't speak for "everyone".

It seems a lot of Americans (main users of this site) wear clothes in saunas, or in the shower after going swimming

Re: What even is 'adult' content? [NSFW]

#100
post #90

Why is this discussion always about nudity and sexuality? Would it not be much better if children see people having fun fucking each other than seeing people murder each other in countless ways? Why is it more acceptable to show Wile E. Coyote trying to murder Road Runner by dropping anvils onto him than showing Bugs Bunny and Lola Bunny fuck each other? Ignoring for the moment that children probably find the former…

Graphic violence generally is considered adult content. Let’s not pretend slapstick comedy is the same as graphic violence. Furthermore, you/kids definitely see cartoons where one character is enamored with another (heart eyes jumping out of sockets) and pursues that character for the entirety of the episode.
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