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Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

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Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#91

Post by RugnirViking »

agumonkey wrote: post #40
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

So the heat transfer through the material to the water "fast" enough so that it doesn't char at all ? Makes sense but still surprising.

I wonder if attempts to prevent charring of such a design could be what led to pottery. One can imagine smearing mud or clay on the underside of bark or animal hide pots to increase their longevity. Long enough exposure to high heat and ?

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#92

Post by b800h »

Youden wrote: post #22
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner. Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

When was this - are we saying that high school science teachers were aware of a fact that was not acknowledged by historians and anthropologists? Quite interesting!

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#93

Post by seiferteric »

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

I would think you would not even have to expose it directly to fire, you could put it on a rock above or near the fire. Also you can of course heat rocks in a fire and put them into water to boil it.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#95

Post by b800h »

fransje26 wrote: post #31
bjackman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think it's pretty inconceivable at this point that Sapiens were the first ones to have language. I think it's still reasonable to argue that Neandertals lacked certain capacities that we have, based on differences in the evidence from tools and art that's attributed to them vs Sapiens. But IMO this would clearly have been a difference of degree, not at atomic shift. They were obviously _people_.

At the moment, your comment is being heavily down-voted for what seems to be a totally reasonable point of view. In recent years we've went from "completely primitive and segregated Neanderthals", to "oh, we share quite a bit of DNA with the Neanderthals", and "the Neanderthals engaged in complex symbolic thought", as well as "the Neanderthals were pretty advanced artists". The current article is a further demonstrat…

What are the chances that we discover that in some ways they were more advanced than early homo sapiens (I'm not saying "us" here, as I have a lot of Neanderthal DNA)?

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#96

Post by jvanderbot »

b800h wrote: post #92
Youden wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner. Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

When was this - are we saying that high school science teachers were aware of a fact that was not acknowledged by historians and anthropologists? Quite interesting!

You might be entertained to learn that this happens _all the time_. The spearpoint of application is often a _long way_ from the theory. So much so that they can miss obvious things.

https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/9602/rediscover...

(Dont' skip the comments)

Sometimes to hilarious results:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7677819/

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#97

Post by williamdclt »

jghn wrote: post #83
williamdclt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting somewhat off-topic and maybe it's more evident to other people, but for me understanding this energy transfer was eye-opening for my cooking abilities! Like, my mushrooms aren't going to actually cook as I want as long as they render water because the water is cooling the pan down. Obvious in retrospect, never really fully realised it. Also means I can blast the heat up to get rid of this water faster, it's n…

this is also why cooking advice shifted from "don't wash mushrooms" to "wash mushrooms". If you're cooking your mushrooms properly you'll boil off all the water anyways, so it doesn't matter. It's only if you *don't* cook your mushrooms properly that washing mushrooms makes everything more watery than you'd like.

I don’t wash mushroom because that makes them slimy, making them much more annoying to cut (and also it takes more time than not doing it). I can take a little dirt!

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#98

Post by BurningFrog »

Youden wrote: post #22
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner. Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

It's a classic survival tip when lost in the wild:

Fold your map into a box and cook whatever food-like things you've found before eating.

Why you're lost when you have a map is a different question.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#99

Post by toast0 »

prometheus76 wrote: post #65
bjackman wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIUC the easiest way to boil stuff without ceramics is usually in an animal's stomach or intestines. I believe you can also do it in a lined wicker basket. I'm not sure exactly how these things are done but both of them seem much easier to figure out than how to fire a pot! (Requires very high temperature and a good understanding of the material to stop it cracking)

You can also use a plastic bottle or even a paper drinking cup.

Neanderthals were practically swimming in those.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#100

Post by mapt »

bjackman wrote: post #23
14 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes if you search youtube you can find people showing how to boil water inside a plastic bag. Typically they show this in survival situation scenarios. You apparently can also do it in a wooden container if done right. But as to your question wouldn't they need to have pots? Well I know we don't have evidence of that but it wouldn't surprise me. Another method show for survival shows a person taking a fallen tree and…

IIUC the easiest way to boil stuff without ceramics is usually in an animal's stomach or intestines. I believe you can also do it in a lined wicker basket. I'm not sure exactly how these things are done but both of them seem much easier to figure out than how to fire a pot! (Requires very high temperature and a good understanding of the material to stop it cracking)

Or a big leaf of the right plant, trussed up into a sack with grass.
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