Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your perspective on religious institutions is very different than mine and I'm very curious how that came to be and how much different your experience was than mine. I'm in my thirties and since I was very young I've known *not* to trust most religious institutions and --being raised on Sesame Street and Mr Rogers-- instinctively was not fond of the people in them. Most church goers I would meet were usually not frie…
> being raised on Mr Rogers Mr Rogers was an ordained minister. Within his denomination, his ministry assignment - his congregation - was television.
Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator
91–96 of 96 posts
Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're claiming healthcare advice is an emergent phenomenon and also agreeing that people who spread "verifiably false" misinformation lost their license - a totally non-emergent phenomenon. I get that your faith in authority is so strong you don't really believe there were any mistakes made there, and thus that the people who were fired for opposing public health mandates weren't really part of the healthcare system…
How many licensure boards are there in the US? Roughly 60. How many allow their doctors to relay verifiably false medical information with their patients? Roughly zero. Is this because there's some big conspiracy of all 60 licensure boards getting together to suppress information, or is it because each of them has independently reached the self-evident conclusion that licensees spreading false information destroys th…
By all means, try and wordsmith your way out of these facts. It doesn't work. Trust in the medical profession has dropped through the floor, and it will keep falling further for as long as responses like yours are common in discussions of it.
As for your 60 number, those are mostly state level boards, who have a monopoly over licensing in that state. If a doctor gets struck off in a state they could move to another, lose all their customers and home, and try to start again, but in practice those boards don't approve doctors who were struck off in another state regardless of reason. So in reality it's not much different to having one. The wider argument is of course silly, akin to arguing that if two dictators happen to make the same decision their countries aren't dictatorships because all decisions are emergent phenomena arising from the wisdom of the crowds.
Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Surprising. I'm 54 and the coming ice age was pretty widely published in my childhood. Lenard Nimoy had a movie about it, it was in Newsweek etc (and before you laugh, Newsweek was "real news" back in those days and my parents had a mail subscription). I remember being extremely worried about it as a child and thinking "I am the last generation to know civilization as it has been before the world freezes over!" It pr…
There was one Newsweek article about it, and the Leonard Nimoy movie you are talking about is most likely “In Search Of…”, which also covered Bigfoot, UFOs, and the Bermuda Triangle.
They held international conferences to discuss it and wrote to the US President with their conclusions, warning him of the certainty of an impending ice age. This tweet [2] has the first page of the letter and an article from the Guardian headlined, "Space satellites show new ice age coming fast", by Anthony Tucker. The first paragraph says:
"WORLDWIDE and rapid trends towards a mini ice age are emerging from the first long term analyses of weather satellite data [...] an analysis carried out at Columbia University by climatologists Doctors George and Helena Kukla indicates that snow and ice cover of the Earth increased by 12% during 1967-1972"
Note that this claim about the data is incompatible with modern claims about the climate. If you try to look up the data they're talking about you'll find it's hard because modern graphs are truncated in the 1980s or even 1990s. The original paper is here [1] and argues the next cooling period will last 8000 years, driven by solar factors.
Back then climatology was obscure, because the idea of climate change being important hadn't been invented yet. You can see the seeds of it being planted with journalists, though:
"The trends appear to be cyclic, fairly long term and extremely important. It is therefore surprising that, in Britain at least, support for historic analysis of the climate is almost non-existent."
The letter to the president warned him to prepare "agriculture and industry" but also said that the ice age had a natural cause.
You can dig up endless pieces of evidence like these, especially if you go back into the journal archives. The papers read just like modern climate papers do, except that they talk about cooling instead of warming and blame natural astronomical cycles (here's another [3] and another [4]). Just search Google Scholar for papers published between 1960 and 1975 containing the phrase "climatic change".
The Leonard Nimoy documentary was part of a pop-sci series. The series did include episodes on the paranormal especially early in its life, but it also had plenty of episodes on general science topics like the study of earthquake prediction, bees, ants, hurricanes, DNA research, biblical historicity and so on. Anything the general public might find interesting. The episode on the coming ice age was grounded in and triggered by claims by the climatologists of the era.
[1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/quaternary-research/...
[2] https://x.com/Kanthan2030/status/1758729686434320645
[3] https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/627434
[4] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-8306.1974...
Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
There was one Newsweek article about it, and the Leonard Nimoy movie you are talking about is most likely “In Search Of…”, which also covered Bigfoot, UFOs, and the Bermuda Triangle.
You might want to double check that claim about Newsweek being the only coverage. I've seen climate crisis promoters say that, but it's misinformation. Global cooling was widely discussed by scientists and journalists from about the early 60s up to the mid 1970s, when recorded temperatures stopped falling. They held international conferences to discuss it and wrote to the US President with their conclusions, warning…
Edit: I haven't worked in academia for a long time and I wasn't working in anything even remotely related to climate science...
Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
You might want to double check that claim about Newsweek being the only coverage. I've seen climate crisis promoters say that, but it's misinformation. Global cooling was widely discussed by scientists and journalists from about the early 60s up to the mid 1970s, when recorded temperatures stopped falling. They held international conferences to discuss it and wrote to the US President with their conclusions, warning…
But isn't that just science working as expected - there are a set of different views and over time a consensus evolves? Nobody ever agrees with everything - that's not how science works (at least in my experience). Edit: I haven't worked in academia for a long time and I wasn't working in anything even remotely related to climate science...
1. We lack data on a topic so are collecting it.
2. Our data is certain but our understanding isn't.
3. Our understanding has been proven and here are some policies.
What's not OK is:
1. Our data shows X and our understanding is certain that Y is happening, so do Z.
2. Our data shows the opposite of X and our understanding is certain that the opposite of Y is happening, so do the opposite of Z.
The Newsweek article mentioned above says: “Climatologists are pessimistic that political leaders will take any positive action to compensate for the climatic change, or even to allay its effects. They concede that some of the more spectacular solutions proposed, such as melting the arctic ice cap by covering it with black soot or diverting arctic rivers, might create problems far greater than those they solve.” So the gap between proposing to melt the polar ice caps and James Hansen testifying about global warming to Congress was only about 13 years.
The point of the scientific method is to build an understanding of a phenomena based on robust evidence, as well as to understand the limits of our own understanding. If a group of people claim to be scientists and then one day invert everything they're saying, then at some point the scientific method has broken down. If they admit that this happened and implement really convincing changes to prevent it ever happening again, then maybe that's recoverable. But if they ignore and try to cover up what happened, that should be the end of that group's credibility and funding. Unfortunately, in this case they have indeed tried to cover it up.
Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
How many licensure boards are there in the US? Roughly 60. How many allow their doctors to relay verifiably false medical information with their patients? Roughly zero. Is this because there's some big conspiracy of all 60 licensure boards getting together to suppress information, or is it because each of them has independently reached the self-evident conclusion that licensees spreading false information destroys th…
You seem to be under the impression there were no conspiracies during COVID, which is nonsense. You can read the Slack logs of the channels where conspiracies were organized (e.g. the papers denying lab leaks were organized that way). You can read emails where people were given their top-down orders. You can read meeting notes and journal reviews where people say that whilst claim X is true it would cause people to s…
You seem to be continuing to put words into other people's mouths.
> You can read emails where people were given their top-down orders.
This is literally not true (I've read the emails)
> The synchronized flipflops on masks alone was enough to destroy many people's belief in doctors and public health.
One man's "synchronized flipflop" is another's "appearance of new evidence and tradeoffs."
> You can read meeting notes and journal reviews where people say that whilst claim X is true it would cause people to stop following government orders so it should be suppressed.
Can you link me to this?
> You can read interviews with public health officials who say they organized conspiracies to lying
Can you link me to this?
> akin to arguing that if two dictators happen to make the same decision their countries aren't dictatorships
No, it's like arguing that if two dictators happen to make the same decision, it doesn't mean they are acting in coordination with one another. Which is obviously true.
All I see in this thread is someone confidently asserting that he needs to be trusted with the truth despite reflexively dismissing data that doesn't fit his priors and, apparently, believing that it's unreasonable to assume that being physically closer to a person with a respiratory virus produces a higher risk of infection than standing further away. (I find that you're never far from truly insane opinions in convos with these "just a skeptic" types)
You have done a fine job of demonstrating the loss of trust in the profession though, I'll give you that! It is almost entirely (not entirely, but almost entirely) due to people who have simply decided to be confidently wrong and, when asked for examples or sources over and over and over again, fail to produce them.
You obviously have a right to form your own opinion on all of this stuff, but demonstrably don't have the capability to do it. Many such cases!