Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law • Hacker News Board

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#91

Post by K0balt » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 2:53 PM UTC

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #87

zarzavat wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we really want lawless places on this planet to exist where companies and individuals can escape the courts and law enforcement of their own nations? Yes. If the alternative is a worldwide police state.

>Yes. If the alternative is a worldwide police state. Being held accountable for crimes is your definition of a "police state"? Interesting. What you're trying to hint at is political persecution, and there is the possibility of asylum for that. But let's differentiate between persecution and running away from crimes, and not muddy the waters. Not all crimes are the result of persecution. Otherwise what's stopping an…

I don’t think op meant that at all. Your response reads a lot like “if you don’t have anything to hide…” arguments against privacy and encryption. Liberty always comes with a cost. It is de-facto a lack of control by the state. It is precisely this lack of control that creates value in liberty.

The state will always go through cycles of opinion, witch hunts, political interference, and other malfeasances of power. It will probably be corrected, only to temporarily careen off the rails again. This is -the best case scenario- for a healthy democracy.

The only way to limit the effect of this meandering pathfinding on individuals is to place some things intentionally out of reach of the state. To abuse their power, then they must break the law. This triggers the correction that brings democracy back towards the just path. Without limits to break, the state will careen so far off the path that it may have a hard time righting itself.

We must force the state to use open coercion when it wants to stretch the limits of its reach. This is a critical element for democracy to function… its reach must have well defined limits that stop well short of any legal activity, even if it means criminals and deviants will face less obstacles. This is the cost of freedom.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#92

Post by FirmwareBurner » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 3:12 PM UTC

K0balt wrote: post #91

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes. If the alternative is a worldwide police state. Being held accountable for crimes is your definition of a "police state"? Interesting. What you're trying to hint at is political persecution, and there is the possibility of asylum for that. But let's differentiate between persecution and running away from crimes, and not muddy the waters. Not all crimes are the result of persecution. Otherwise what's stopping an…

I don’t think op meant that at all. Your response reads a lot like “if you don’t have anything to hide…” arguments against privacy and encryption. Liberty always comes with a cost. It is de-facto a lack of control by the state. It is precisely this lack of control that creates value in liberty. The state will always go through cycles of opinion, witch hunts, political interference, and other malfeasances of power. It…

> Your response reads a lot like “if you don’t have anything to hide…”

That's not what I said.

>We must force the state to use open coercion when it wants to stretch the limits of its reach.

That's exactly what I said.

>even if it means criminals and deviants will face less obstacles

Curios how liberal you'd be with the criminal who'd wronged you. Mercy towards criminals is a crime towards their victims.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#93

Post by rspoerri » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 3:27 PM UTC

RealStickman_ wrote: post #35

Well fuck, guess I'm moving all my domains again. And I just moved away from Gandi. Does anyone have recommendations for domain registrars that support .ch and .li domains and ideally also supported by lego (my current acme client of choice)?

I keep my swiss domains on cyon. But i dont know about lego support.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#94

Post by 4bpp » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 3:41 PM UTC

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #92

K0balt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think op meant that at all. Your response reads a lot like “if you don’t have anything to hide…” arguments against privacy and encryption. Liberty always comes with a cost. It is de-facto a lack of control by the state. It is precisely this lack of control that creates value in liberty. The state will always go through cycles of opinion, witch hunts, political interference, and other malfeasances of power. It…

> Your response reads a lot like “if you don’t have anything to hide…” That's not what I said. >We must force the state to use open coercion when it wants to stretch the limits of its reach. That's exactly what I said. >even if it means criminals and deviants will face less obstacles Curios how liberal you'd be with the criminal who'd wronged you. Mercy towards criminals is a crime towards their victims.

> Curios how liberal you'd be with the criminal who'd wronged you. Mercy towards criminals is a crime towards their victims.

Most societies that we would consider worth living in hold up the principle that matters of justice should be decided by the impartial and uninvolved. If the victim's feelings should determine the punishment, what would stop any petty theft and spicy insult (for the vast majority of countries where those are considered crimes) from being answered with the death penalty?

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#95

Post by noman-land » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 3:42 PM UTC

kovac wrote: post #78

Despite it's limitations on the UX side, PGP is still the better option for email privacy I think. That and using your own domain. There's tor for the web when one needs it. None of these are ideal, but they depend a lot less on trusting third parties.

PGP suffers from lack of forward secrecy, no? It also suffers from the fact that no one uses it :D.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#96

Post by 4bpp » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 3:48 PM UTC

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #87

zarzavat wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we really want lawless places on this planet to exist where companies and individuals can escape the courts and law enforcement of their own nations? Yes. If the alternative is a worldwide police state.

>Yes. If the alternative is a worldwide police state. Being held accountable for crimes is your definition of a "police state"? Interesting. What you're trying to hint at is political persecution, and there is the possibility of asylum for that. But let's differentiate between persecution and running away from crimes, and not muddy the waters. Not all crimes are the result of persecution. Otherwise what's stopping an…

> The "police state" is the one ensuring your family's safety. In our modern societies, we have outsourced the monopoly on violence to the police state, so that we can focus on work and hobbies, and that comes at the expense of trusting the state and holding it accountable through democracy.

My family is approximately infinitely more likely to be considered a "perpetrator" of a crime internet deanonymization will be used to prosecute (piracy, bad opinions, dealing in the wrong kind of crypto coins, ordering the wrong kind of chemicals from India) than to be a "victim" in our own estimation, so at least in this particular domain the "police state" is only ensuring the interests of some others, at the expense of my family's safety (which they could and would directly compromise using the violence they have monopolised).

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#97

Post by beej71 » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 3:53 PM UTC

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #87

zarzavat wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we really want lawless places on this planet to exist where companies and individuals can escape the courts and law enforcement of their own nations? Yes. If the alternative is a worldwide police state.

>Yes. If the alternative is a worldwide police state. Being held accountable for crimes is your definition of a "police state"? Interesting. What you're trying to hint at is political persecution, and there is the possibility of asylum for that. But let's differentiate between persecution and running away from crimes, and not muddy the waters. Not all crimes are the result of persecution. Otherwise what's stopping an…

The only way to definitely hold everybody accountable for all crimes is a police state.

Like Franklin said, he'd rather 100 guilty people go free rather than a single innocent person jailed. He was definitely willing to not hold some people accountable for their crimes because that was a requirement for a free state.

You said earlier that the solution was to change the laws, and this is what we're saying right now. Change the laws so that VPNs are allowed and cryptography is allowed so that we can avoid the police state.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#98

Post by FirmwareBurner » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 5:13 PM UTC

4bpp wrote: post #94

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your response reads a lot like “if you don’t have anything to hide…” That's not what I said. >We must force the state to use open coercion when it wants to stretch the limits of its reach. That's exactly what I said. >even if it means criminals and deviants will face less obstacles Curios how liberal you'd be with the criminal who'd wronged you. Mercy towards criminals is a crime towards their victims.

> Curios how liberal you'd be with the criminal who'd wronged you. Mercy towards criminals is a crime towards their victims. Most societies that we would consider worth living in hold up the principle that matters of justice should be decided by the impartial and uninvolved. If the victim's feelings should determine the punishment, what would stop any petty theft and spicy insult (for the vast majority of countries w…

>Most societies that we would consider worth living in hold up the principle that matters of justice should be decided by the impartial and uninvolved

Please, don't twist my words, I never said the victim should be the judge. I asked how would the victim feel if criminality had safe spaces where they could avoid justice because they feel like the law is unfair with them.

>If the victim's feelings should determine the punishment

In "most societies that we would consider worth living" as per your words, the victim's feelings are always taken into account in court that determines sentencing. Case in point, men and women get disproportionate sentences in the west for the exact same crime, like sexual abuse for instance.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#99

Post by dingnuts » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 6:38 PM UTC

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #98

4bpp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Curios how liberal you'd be with the criminal who'd wronged you. Mercy towards criminals is a crime towards their victims. Most societies that we would consider worth living in hold up the principle that matters of justice should be decided by the impartial and uninvolved. If the victim's feelings should determine the punishment, what would stop any petty theft and spicy insult (for the vast majority of countries w…

>Most societies that we would consider worth living in hold up the principle that matters of justice should be decided by the impartial and uninvolved Please, don't twist my words, I never said the victim should be the judge. I asked how would the victim feel if criminality had safe spaces where they could avoid justice because they feel like the law is unfair with them. >If the victim's feelings should determine the…

> I asked how would the victim feel

A lot of the kinds of crimes we're discussing here are things like being homosexual in the Middle East, where there is no victim, only a transgression imagined by religious nuts.

Yes, it's good that those people have a place to go. Happy Pride.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#100

Post by dingnuts » Fri, Jun 06, 2025, 6:47 PM UTC

nickslaughter02 wrote: post #43

api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iceland? It’s tough. The world is, overall, going through a shift toward authoritarianism of various flavors, and people are voting for it because of incredibly successful propaganda and fear of change.

going through a shift toward authoritarianism of various flavors It is the current establishment that is pushing for these laws. Switzerland and EU have proven you don't need authoritarianism to constantly attack privacy and security of people.

Attacking individual privacy and security is still authoritarianism when done by a democratically elected government. That's why it's important to be a Republic founded on a rule of law that limits what the majority may do; eg in the US a majority cannot take away rights of expression from individuals.

The EU is authoritarian in many ways. How the laws get made is secondary to whether or not they are authoritarian.