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AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

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Re: AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

#91

Post by latexr »

kachapopopow wrote: post #40

Some of these are very obviously trained on webtoons and manga, probably pixiv as well. This is very clear due to seeing CG buildings and other misc artifacts. So this is obviously trained on copyrighted material. Art is something that cannot be generated like synthetic text so it will have to be nearly forever powered by human artists or else you will continue to end up with artifacting. So it makes me wonder if art…

> So it makes me wonder if artists will just be downgraded to an "AI" training position, but it could be for the best as people can draw what they like instead and have that input feed into a model for training which doesn't sound too bad.

Doesn’t sound too bad? It sounds like the premise of a dystopian novel. Most artists would be profoundly unhappy making “art” to be fed to and deconstructed by a machine. You’re not creating art at that point, you’re simply another cog feeding the machine. “Art” is not drawing random pictures. And how, pray tell, will these artists survive? Who is going to be paying them to “draw whatever they like” to feed to models? And why would they employ more than two or three?

> it still make me wonder (…) if we're going to start losing challenging styles (…) and everything will start 'felling' the same.

It already does. There are outliers, sure, but the web is already inundated by shit images which nonetheless fool people. I bet scamming and spamming with fake images and creating fake content for monetisation is already a bigger market than people “genuinely” using the tools. And it will get worse.

Re: AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

#92

Post by ben_w »

kouteiheika wrote: post #55
sshine wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s great that you have sympathy for illustrators, but I don’t see a big difference if the training data is a novel, a picture, a song, a piece of code, or even a piece of legal text. As my mom retired from being a translator, she went from typewriter to machine-assisted translation with centralised corpus-databases. All the while the available work became less and less, and the wages became lower and lower. In the…

> As my mom retired from being a translator, she went from typewriter to machine-assisted translation with centralised corpus-databases. All the while the available work became less and less, and the wages became lower and lower. She was lucky to be able to retire when she did, as the job of a translator is definitely going to become extinct. You can already get higher quality translations from machine learning model…

While LLMs are pretty good, and likely to improve, my experience is OpenAI's offerings *absolutely* make stuff up after a few thousand words or so, and they're one of the better ones.

It also varies by language. Every time I give an example here of machine translated English-to-Chinese, it's so bad that the responses are all people who can read Chinese being confused because it's gibberish.

And as for politics, as Grok has just been demonstrating, they're quite capable of whatever bias they've been trained to have or told to express.

But it's worse than that, because different languages cut the world at different joints, so most translations have to make a choice between literal correctness and readability — for example, you can have gender-neutral "software developer" in English, but in German to maintain neutrality you have to choose between various unwieldy affixes such as "Softwareentwickler (m/w/d)" or "Softwareentwickler*innen" (https://de.indeed.com/karriere-guide/jobsuche/wie-wird-man-s...), or pick a gender because "Softwareentwickler" by itself means they're male.

Re: AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

#95

Post by GoblinSlayer »

wordpad wrote: post #45
kachapopopow wrote: post #40

Some of these are very obviously trained on webtoons and manga, probably pixiv as well. This is very clear due to seeing CG buildings and other misc artifacts. So this is obviously trained on copyrighted material. Art is something that cannot be generated like synthetic text so it will have to be nearly forever powered by human artists or else you will continue to end up with artifacting. So it makes me wonder if art…

Artists push the envelope. With AI tools artists will be able to push further, doing things that AI can't do yet.

Push further can only artists that weren't crippled by AI.

Re: AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

#96

Post by latexr »

wodenokoto wrote: post #52
kachapopopow wrote: post #40

Some of these are very obviously trained on webtoons and manga, probably pixiv as well. This is very clear due to seeing CG buildings and other misc artifacts. So this is obviously trained on copyrighted material. Art is something that cannot be generated like synthetic text so it will have to be nearly forever powered by human artists or else you will continue to end up with artifacting. So it makes me wonder if art…

I think the “paper rock cross blade” short films by Corridor is absolute great and can by all accounts be called art and if they make a 3rd they will probably use this model. In terms of losing styles, that is already been happening for ages. Disney moved to xeroxing instead of inking, changed the style because inking was “too hard”. In the late 90s/early 2000s we saw a burst of cartoons with a flash animation style…

I disagree with the positive characterisation. Those videos have a funny schtick of exaggerating anime tropes for a couple of minutes and that’s the extent of it. The animation is all over the place, reactions, expressions, mouth movements often fail, style changes from frame to frame. It maybe kind of works precisely because it’s a short exaggerated parody and we have a high tolerance for flaws in comedy, but even then the seams are showing. Anything even remotely more substantive would no longer have worked.

Re: AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

#97

Post by victorbjorklund »

earthnail wrote: post #47
sshine wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s great that you have sympathy for illustrators, but I don’t see a big difference if the training data is a novel, a picture, a song, a piece of code, or even a piece of legal text. As my mom retired from being a translator, she went from typewriter to machine-assisted translation with centralised corpus-databases. All the while the available work became less and less, and the wages became lower and lower. In the…

Here’s the argument: The output of her translations had no copyright. Language developed independently of translators. The output of artists has copyright. Artists shape the space in which they’re generating output. The fear now is that if we no longer have a market where people generate novel arts, that space will stagnate.

You are wrong. Translations have copyright. That is why a new translation of for example an ancient book has copyright and you are now allowed to reproduce it without permission.

Re: AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

#98

Post by [deleted] »

latexr wrote: post #96
wodenokoto wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the “paper rock cross blade” short films by Corridor is absolute great and can by all accounts be called art and if they make a 3rd they will probably use this model. In terms of losing styles, that is already been happening for ages. Disney moved to xeroxing instead of inking, changed the style because inking was “too hard”. In the late 90s/early 2000s we saw a burst of cartoons with a flash animation style…

I disagree with the positive characterisation. Those videos have a funny schtick of exaggerating anime tropes for a couple of minutes and that’s the extent of it. The animation is all over the place, reactions, expressions, mouth movements often fail, style changes from frame to frame. It maybe kind of works precisely because it’s a short exaggerated parody and we have a high tolerance for flaws in comedy, but even t…

[deleted]

Re: AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

#99

Post by omeid2 »

Nevermark wrote: post #87
imiric wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The output of artists has copyright. Copyright is a very messy and divisive topic. How exactly can an artist claim ownership of a thought or an image? It is often difficult to ascertain whether a piece of art infringes on the copyright of another. There are grey areas like "fair use", which complicate this further. In many cases copyright is also abused by holders to censor art that they don't like for a myriad of…

Ambiguities are not a good argument against laws that still have positive outcomes. There are very few laws that are not giant ambiguities. Where is the line between murder, self-defense and accident? There are no lines in reality. (A law about spectrum use, or registered real estate borders, etc. can be clear. But a large amount of law isn’t.) Something must change regarding copyright and AI model training. But it d…

> There are very few laws that are not giant ambiguities. Where is the line between murder, self-defense and accident? There are no lines in reality.

These things are very well and precisely defined in just about every jurisdiction. The "ambiguities" arise from ascertaining facts of the matter, and whatever some facts fits within a specific set of set rules.

> Something must change regarding copyright and AI model training.

Yes, but this problem is not specific to AI, it is the question of what constitutes a derivative, and that is a rather subjective matter in the light of the good ol' axiom of "nothing is new under the sun".

Re: AniSora: Open-source anime video generation model

#100

Post by taneq »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #86
imiric wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The output of artists has copyright. Copyright is a very messy and divisive topic. How exactly can an artist claim ownership of a thought or an image? It is often difficult to ascertain whether a piece of art infringes on the copyright of another. There are grey areas like "fair use", which complicate this further. In many cases copyright is also abused by holders to censor art that they don't like for a myriad of…

>Art created by humans is not entirely original. The catch here is that a human can use single sample as input, but AI needs a torrent of training data. Also when AI generates permutations of samples, does their statistic match training data?

Not without a torrent of pre-training data. The qualitative differences are rapidly becoming intangible ‘soul’ type things.
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