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LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

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Re: LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a YouTube video demonstrating this? My only experience with debate is from the TV show Community.

This one is very short but conveys the idea well. Not all debate is like this but it is definitely a real phenomenon https://youtu.be/LMO27PAHjrY

I'm accustomed to listening to regular speech at 2-3x speed, but apparently that's entirely different than listening to a human try to speak 2-3x faster than normal, because I could barely pick intelligible syllables out of that mess.

This is such an example of getting what you incentivize, not what matters.

Re: LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a YouTube video demonstrating this? My only experience with debate is from the TV show Community.

This one is very short but conveys the idea well. Not all debate is like this but it is definitely a real phenomenon https://youtu.be/LMO27PAHjrY

What the fuck is wrong with the people running these debates that they reward these techniques?

Re: LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

#93

My guess for the reason behind this is that LLMs have more facts memorized, and thus can make more reasonable and well-researched sounding answers. If you ask an LLM vs a Human "Is a stack in computer science a) a data structure that is first in first out or b) a data structure that is first in last out" the LLM can say stuff resembling "Based on Dijkstra's algorithm proof given in 1943 and the nature of Turing compl…

They also have more persuasive conversations in their pretraining data. That includes tons of marketing material, cons, and bullying. They are also as bold as you want them to be about imitating such tactics. They have no remorse or legal accountability either.

Re: LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

#94
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on reading bad AI generated student essays it’s worse than that, LLMs are happy to “fill in the blanks” with whatever made up fact would make their argument look best. Most people can’t lie that smoothly, and most readers don’t check carefully, unless they are already an expert in the area. Any kind of maths proof is particularly bad, they will look convincing and clear until you read them very carefully and se…

It's funny you mention this, because my father operates exactly as you describe the LLMs, making facts up on the spot, lying smoothly and keeping track of the lies... ...and he's built his whole career in sales because of it. He despises the existence of Google, because the last thing a pathological bullshitter wants is fact-checking in pockets! It's taken me nearly 40 years to understand that anchoring statements in…

In his line of work, it doesn't matter what is true.

Re: LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a YouTube video demonstrating this? My only experience with debate is from the TV show Community.

This one is very short but conveys the idea well. Not all debate is like this but it is definitely a real phenomenon https://youtu.be/LMO27PAHjrY

"Because we raise the trigger and only two carrying noodles, and only two can announce in this network but their excess cites their examine this places where the apparatus of military power torches the ground"

He makes an intriguing point.

Re: LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

#98
post #81
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to win debate tournaments. In particular, it is (or at least was, when I competed in policy debate in high school and college in the 00s) strategically advantageous to maximize the number of distinct arguments, each with their own set of supporting evidence (usually read verbatim from a prepared excerpt of a news article or authoritative reference or whatever), you make within the allocated time. This in…

And the judges of these tournaments not only understand it too (I can understand an opponent understanding if they've practiced the same thing) but seriously value it in scoring? Again/stepping back: what is the point of winning a debate tournament like this, or that values this 'debate'?

What’s the point of winning a chess tournament or any other intellectual game/sport?

Re: LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

#99
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the judges of these tournaments not only understand it too (I can understand an opponent understanding if they've practiced the same thing) but seriously value it in scoring? Again/stepping back: what is the point of winning a debate tournament like this, or that values this 'debate'?

What’s the point of winning a chess tournament or any other intellectual game/sport?

What's intellectual about slurring some words really quickly?

Re: LLMs are more persuasive than incentivized human persuaders

#100
post #81
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to win debate tournaments. In particular, it is (or at least was, when I competed in policy debate in high school and college in the 00s) strategically advantageous to maximize the number of distinct arguments, each with their own set of supporting evidence (usually read verbatim from a prepared excerpt of a news article or authoritative reference or whatever), you make within the allocated time. This in…

And the judges of these tournaments not only understand it too (I can understand an opponent understanding if they've practiced the same thing) but seriously value it in scoring? Again/stepping back: what is the point of winning a debate tournament like this, or that values this 'debate'?

> And the judges of these tournaments not only understand it too (I can understand an opponent understanding if they've practiced the same thing)

Generally yes, although a good team will slow down and speak more or less like normal people if they have a so-called "lay judge" who wouldn't be able to understand them going at full speed.

> but seriously value it in scoring?

You don't really get "scored" on how fast you speak (there's no points system), but, as I mentioned, there are strategic reasons to speak quickly.

For instance, a time-honored strategy is to spew out a huge number of roughly-orthogonal arguments (e.g. "my opponent's policy failed to support the resolution we are debating this tournament, and thus shouldn't win for procedural reasons." "my opponent's policy would destabilize the Kashmir conflict and thus lead to global thermonuclear war." "my opponent's policy would preclude this alternative policy I am now presenting, and my policy is better, ergo my opponent's policy is bad in terms of opportunity cost." and so on), and then circle back later in the debate and further develop any arguments your opponent failed to adequately address (perhaps because they can't speak as fast as you).

An interesting counter-example from when I was actively debating is that at least one team on the national circuit was arguing (somewhat successfully, if I remember right) that speaking fast was a reason to actively vote against a team. The rough gist of the argument was something along the lines that being trained to speak quickly (and have the huge amount of prep-work required to really get value out of the skill) was something really only accessible to affluent/"privileged" kids (although that latter term was a couple years away from entering the common lexicon, I think), and then connecting it back to the central topic of that debate season so as to undermine whatever position the other team had originally presented (but, of course, pointing out that the impact of their argument was occurring in the real world, right now, contra the assumed fiction of their opponent's policy proposal or whatever, and thus a more urgent reason to vote for them).

> what is the point of winning a debate tournament like this, or that values this 'debate'?

For the most part, it's a fun and challenging game for the people involved, the same reason people play chess or go bowling. There's a lot of work and creativity that goes into preparing for a tournament, and the debate rounds themselves reward being able to think quickly on your feet and work well with your debate partner. You get a lot of practice at speaking in public, to a hostile audience no less, which is imo an incredibly valuable life skill (and can be very exciting).

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