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Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

aruarian.dance

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Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#91

Post by lxgr »

tonyhart7 wrote: post #26
pwim wrote: post #5

Unfortunately transit operators are looking to discontinue the use of these IC cards in favour of QR codes as part of a cost saving strategy: https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20241015/p2a/00m/0bu/01...

they want to replace that for cutting cost, this system is great when in large cities but in rural areas the speed,cost etc is excessive so there's that, I mean if we can optimize QR code system. the winner obviously would be QR because no need to have an dedicated hardware for this Yes, IC card would be faster but at what point the difference is matters???

A perfectly aligned QR code, displayed on a bright mobile phone display, can work acceptably fast.

Practically, many people however only start thinking about possibly needing to open some app to display it while they’re already blocking everybody else’s way at the transit gate…

The biggest practical benefit of IC cards is that they are by nature always “armed”, unlike QR codes in apps, and are readable from both sides.

On top of that, due to being able to run mutual authentication and being able to store a trusted balance, they are much more resilient to outages of any backend system. QR code tickets invariably need networking and a central backend.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#92

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

appreciatorBus wrote: post #81
hiatus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt airlines complicate boarding groups to reinforce classes. It is likely all about the bottom line, and nickel and dime-ing you at every opportunity.

I think the point is that creating a class system is one way to maximize revenue. The social aspects of that system - looking down on people in economy, or aspiring to be the people in first class – aren’t necessarily the first order effects, but I suspect they contribute.

Exactly, that's the point. Creating an envy structure in order to increase revenue.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#93

Post by dwood_dev »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #89
lxgr wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A broadly supported tap-to-pay fare system is such an underrated accessibility win for public transit when traveling. Many tourists already get intimidated by language barriers and inscrutable timetables and transit routes; add tariff complexity (and the chance of getting charged with fare evasion!), and many just end up taking a taxi. With these stored-value systems, you pretty much don't have to ever worry about do…

You can now make cards and top up from inside Apple Wallet (even with a non Japanese phone or account)

Not sure if it's still the case, but last year I could only top up with my AmericanExpress in Apple Wallet. Neither Visa nor MasterCard worked. This was a widespread issue at the time.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#94

Post by lxgr »

Reason077 wrote: post #66

> “The London Underground gates don't work nearly as quick with Google Pay or any of my other contactless cards - what gives?” They used to (and still do?) work faster with the Oyster fare card. Virtually instant. But paying with EMV cards/devices does add a noticable transaction latency before the gate opens. A few hundred milliseconds, I’d say.

That's because for EMV, they need to run asymmetric card authentication algorithms, which unfortunately exclusively use RSA. That's just not very fast to do on the type of microcontroller common in these cards.

EMV also uses faster symmetric cryptography between the card and the issuer, but the latter is not in the picture in a transit gate transaction – too much latency – so asymmetric cryptography it is.

That's also the reason some (mostly older, mostly international) cards don't work with TfL: Some don't even have the coprocessor (or just additional processing power these days, I suspect) required for RSA to cut cost, and only work for online payment transactions.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#95

Post by aikinai »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #55

I don't understand -- we are talking about 100ms or so of latency? which is almost completely dwarfed by any mechanical action such as the gates actually opening?? This is about as ridiculous as it gets. The videos that compare the UK system with the JP system practically show the same throughput, even when in the UK video most people are using magnetic/paper tickets (which by necessity are going to be much slower th…

The comparison video is kind of pointless since they're both at very slow times. If you see a Tokyo gate at rush hour with people packed wall-to-wall but moving quickly, that's what the latency was optimized for. And as others have mentioned, it's two things, speed and distance. FeliCa triggers both faster and farther away. And it never errors; you just made up that assumption. Also in Japan no one walks up to the gate and then fiddles with their wallet. Everyone knows proper transit etiquette from when they're very little.

Sometimes people will be low on balance and get rejected. People reroute quickly in normal conditions, but in rush hour that'll be a huge mess and everyone will be pissed at the culprit.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#96

Post by lxgr »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #89
lxgr wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A broadly supported tap-to-pay fare system is such an underrated accessibility win for public transit when traveling. Many tourists already get intimidated by language barriers and inscrutable timetables and transit routes; add tariff complexity (and the chance of getting charged with fare evasion!), and many just end up taking a taxi. With these stored-value systems, you pretty much don't have to ever worry about do…

You can now make cards and top up from inside Apple Wallet (even with a non Japanese phone or account)

Yes, it's great! My point is that Apple's implementation solves all these challenges, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#97

Post by AshamedCaptain »

socalgal2 wrote: post #70
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #55

I don't understand -- we are talking about 100ms or so of latency? which is almost completely dwarfed by any mechanical action such as the gates actually opening?? This is about as ridiculous as it gets. The videos that compare the UK system with the JP system practically show the same throughput, even when in the UK video most people are using magnetic/paper tickets (which by necessity are going to be much slower th…

Maybe because I started my public transportation life in Japan I prefer gates to no gates (1) it means people pay for usage. Someone going 20km pays more than someone going 1km since they have proof where you entered. (2) it prevents more accidents/fines? - I had this happen to me in Paris, maybe because I was used to Japan. I was going to Paris Disneyland. I wrongly assumed I couldn't get there without going through…

I find this a very thin argument, even thinner than the one coming from the authorities claiming rampant ticket fraud. I travel by train a shitton through all of Europe, and I have _never_ had the issue of boarding a train without knowing if I had a valid ticket for it. And even in the cities w/o gates there is some expectation that you will have to validate the ticket somewhere, at your leisure. Do you ever board street trams, for example?

For the record, I am French. I used to be proud that nothing physical prevented you from boarding a train you had no ticket for. But, IMHO sadly, people like me have lost, because now trains also have ticket gates in France, which means that I:

A) No longer can accompany my ailing relatives to their train seats if I don't have a ticket myself (/as I could twenty years ago)

B) No longer can board the train when all my hands are full with luggage (since I need a free hand to search for the ticket in my wallet/bags to go through the damn machine).

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#98

Post by lxgr »

dwood_dev wrote: post #93
wahnfrieden wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can now make cards and top up from inside Apple Wallet (even with a non Japanese phone or account)

Not sure if it's still the case, but last year I could only top up with my AmericanExpress in Apple Wallet. Neither Visa nor MasterCard worked. This was a widespread issue at the time.

I had no issues with either Visa or Mastercard last year, but I believe I went just after that issue was resolved.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#99

Post by cosmic_cheese »

dwood_dev wrote: post #93
wahnfrieden wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can now make cards and top up from inside Apple Wallet (even with a non Japanese phone or account)

Not sure if it's still the case, but last year I could only top up with my AmericanExpress in Apple Wallet. Neither Visa nor MasterCard worked. This was a widespread issue at the time.

FWIW I reloaded the Suica on my iPhone a few times in the past 2-3 weeks using my Apple Card (Mastercard) as the funding source and it worked fine.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#100

Post by AshamedCaptain »

Washuu wrote: post #62
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #55

I don't understand -- we are talking about 100ms or so of latency? which is almost completely dwarfed by any mechanical action such as the gates actually opening?? This is about as ridiculous as it gets. The videos that compare the UK system with the JP system practically show the same throughput, even when in the UK video most people are using magnetic/paper tickets (which by necessity are going to be much slower th…

> In addition, the annoyance of these gates comes from having to fiddle with the wallet, etc. in order to find the card or the phone, or the fact that multiples tries may be required for the reader to actually read it; The NFC readers on the gates in Japan will read cards from several centimeters away. My phone, which has Osaifu-Keitai setup, can be left in my bag and I just wave my bag over the reader as I walk by.…

No, they don't. Even TFA itself points that the moment you have two cards in close proximity, the reader will read nothing (and he points this as if it was a feature). This is why I have to stop and take my cards out of the wallet every time I want to go in.
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