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Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

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Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#91

Post by ninetyninenine »

ratorx wrote: post #90
ninetyninenine wrote: post #68

Except computers attempt to model mathematics in an ideal world. Unless your problem comes from something side effects on a computer that can’t be modeled mathematically there is nothing technically stopping you from modeling the problem as mathematical problem then solving that problem via mathematics. Like the output of the LLM can’t be modeled. We literally do not understand it. Are the problems faced by the SRE e…

I think the vast majority of SRE problems are in the “side effects” category. But higher level than the hardware-level side effects of the computer that you might be imagining. The core problem is building a high enough fidelity model to simulate enough of the real world to make the simulation actually useful. As soon as you have some system feedback loops, the complexity of building a useful model skyrockets. Even i…

Can you give me an example of some problem that emerged that was absolutely unpredictable.

Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#92

Post by apercu »

bitexploder wrote: post #83
apercu wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I've never had to design, build or maintain systems at the scale of a FAANG, but that doesn't mean I haven't been involved in pretty complicated systems (e.g., 5000 different pricing and subsidy rules for 5000 different corporate clients with individually negotiated hardware subsidies (changing all the time) and service plans, commission structure, plus logistics, which involves not only shipping but shipping t…

You are right but it misses the flavor of the problem. I was a consultant in infosec to F500s for many years. Often solving a problem involves simply knowing the right person that has already thought about it or toiled on the problem or a similar one. But when there are 100,000 engineers it becomes an order of magnitude (or two!) more difficult and that puts forth unique challenges. You can still call them “people pr…

Fair, but just in case, the system I used as an anecdote is operated for a company that has 45,000+ direct employees and $25 billion annual revenue.

Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#93

Post by Sharlin »

seanw444 wrote: post #81
barbazoo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get the connection to capitalism here. Care to elaborate?

Probably referring to the fact that they only rewarded them with a candy bar for being a good employee. Which ignores the fact that they're already probably getting paid a decent salary to do their job, and being a good employee is already part of the job description to receive said salary. Anything extra is nice.

Yeah. The chocolate was of course a triviality, more important was the idea of encouraging people to give public thanks and the associated (extremely immaterial) karma points when thanks are due. In this culture (Finnish) we're perhaps not very good at giving praise, and even worse at receiving it, so it helps to have an established ritual for doing so. Also, I think at least one of the original goals was to mitigate the silo effect and encourage people to help their coworkers in other projects and such.

Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#94

Post by vkou »

dietr1ch wrote: post #70
moregrist wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this sounds pretty frustrating, there is at least a small upside: at least you get to the obvious-but-ignored bugfixes. Most smaller places don’t have the bandwidth and many larger ones don’t have the desire. I’m not sure if that makes up for bugs potentially introduced in the refactors, though.

Well, when the owner asks for a whole test suite that didn't exist to get a fix in, what most likely happens is that you just wasted your time in a draft CL that will get lost.

They aren't asking for you to write tests because 'it benefits them', they are asking you to write tests because as a professional engineer, you should write tests, and not just yolo it.

Look, sometimes you may have good reasons for why a test is impractical. You are allowed to push back, or look for a different reviewer. There's a hundred thousand people in the firm, you should be able to find one or two that will let you submit literally anything that compiles.

But most of the time, the reviewer is giving you advice that you should take.

Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#95

Post by mwbajor »

braza wrote: post #10

One of my pet peeves with the usage of complex(ity) out of the traditional time/space in computer science is that most of the time the OPs of several articles over the internet do not make the distinction between boundaried/arbitrary complexity, where most of the time the person has most of the control of what is being implemented, and domain/accidental/environmental complexity, which is wide open and carries a lot o…

Im a HW engineer and don't really understand "complexity" as far as this article describes it. I didn't read it in depth but it doesn't really give any good examples with specifics. Can someone give a detailed example of what the author is really talking about?

Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#96

Post by perryizgr8 »

yndoendo wrote: post #85
Phelinofist wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are peer-bonuses?

I was in Kindergarten and watching my fellow classmates get gold star stickers on their work. They were excited when it happened to them. I saw it as being given nothing of real value and person could just go to the store and buy them for $1 or $2. It is a social engineering technique to exploit more work without increasing wages. Just like "Employee of the Month" or a "Pizza Party." Company I work for does this with…

At a previous company I worked at, peer bonuses literally resulted in a small bonus at the end of the pay period. No gift card, just an email notification and money credited to your account. Most motivating form of peer appreciation I've seen.

Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#97

Post by specialist »

dietr1ch wrote: post #70
moregrist wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this sounds pretty frustrating, there is at least a small upside: at least you get to the obvious-but-ignored bugfixes. Most smaller places don’t have the bandwidth and many larger ones don’t have the desire. I’m not sure if that makes up for bugs potentially introduced in the refactors, though.

Well, when the owner asks for a whole test suite that didn't exist to get a fix in, what most likely happens is that you just wasted your time in a draft CL that will get lost.

Do you mean the relevant code area(s) didn't have (sufficient) tests? You're being asked to backfill those missing tests in addition to your fix?

Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#98

Post by nonethewiser »

RenThraysk wrote: post #44

There is a certain amount of irony when the cookie policy agreement is buggy on a story about complicated & complex systems. Clicking on "Only Necessary" causes the cookie policy agreement to reappear.

I dont see a cookie banner. Thankfully.

Re: Working on complex systems: What I learned working at Google

#99

Post by pclmulqdq »

vkou wrote: post #94
dietr1ch wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when the owner asks for a whole test suite that didn't exist to get a fix in, what most likely happens is that you just wasted your time in a draft CL that will get lost.

They aren't asking for you to write tests because 'it benefits them', they are asking you to write tests because as a professional engineer, you should write tests , and not just yolo it. Look, sometimes you may have good reasons for why a test is impractical. You are allowed to push back, or look for a different reviewer. There's a hundred thousand people in the firm, you should be able to find one or two that will…

If you are turning a button to a slightly different shade of blue and it's not a button you own, the owner of the button should not be asking you to write tests for the button.
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