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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#91

Post by illuminate »

gatordan wrote: post #46
brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

I commented heavily in the original HN thread because of comments like this. You're not defending the behavior... you're just saying women are literally asking for it. Theres this myth that men who are assholes succeed with women. I suppose they do technically succeed - in getting women with low self esteem to sleep with them through manipulation and "pickup artist" techniques. But how successful do you think they ar…

"Theres this myth that men who are assholes succeed with women. I suppose they do technically succeed - in getting women with low self esteem to sleep with them through manipulation and "pickup artist" techniques. But how successful do you think they are at finding a truly fulfilling and meaningful relationships?"

Here's the thing, plenty of the guys lamenting don't know what a fulfilling and meaningful relationship IS, therefore they conflate an abusive one they can't have with what they should have.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#92

Post by illuminate »

unreal37 wrote: post #11

Are there problems that actually occur AT the defcon conference? Sounds like most of the anecdotes are from parties, where alcohol is a factor. Is defcon a conference or a party?

"where alcohol is a factor"

So that changes the situation where some people don't want to be grabbed/touched/propositioned?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#93

Post by pradocchia »

lambda wrote: post #63
brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

Behavior like grabbing a strangers crotch from behind and disappearing before she has a chance to turn around "works"? No, it most certainly does not. There is a big difference between being confident and showing leadership, and groping strangers in public. And the "agressive, alpha male" (which is a term that I hate, by the way) persona doesn't work for everyone, either. I know plenty of women for whom that's a huge…

> At a hacker conference, people are generally more interested in talking about hacking and less about flirting;

Even if I were trying to pick someone up at a conference, I'd talk about hacking, engage their interests, ask them what they are working on, etc. Intellectual flattery.

Physically, I'd be cool. If, after some time, the woman initiated some innocuous physical contact (shoulder & arm touching, for example), I would not reciprocate in kind. No, I would reciprocate with more platonic interest. This might be slightly disappointing at first, but it would build trust. Physical reciprocity only later, like a long-delayed echo.

Really, the physical stuff is entirely dispensable in the courtship phase. So is any kind of sexual innuendo. Keep it cerebral, boys. Ask questions, listen.

But, I'm not looking to pick anyone up.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#94

Post by agpen »

fein wrote: post #36

DefCon or 5 million college bars across the country? You could have replaced those two terms and ended up with the same article. Perhaps the problem isn't just a nerd demographic issue.

Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues but they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture.

A culture which supposedly prides itself on merit and intelligence at first glance ought to be most receptive to actually picking up a book and studying social issues, but the reality is instead that we get a social group full of men's right's advocates and evopsych true-believers and other terrible terrible people.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#95

Post by lifbar »

jasonlotito wrote: post #6

Honest question: As an observer, when should I feel comfortable interjecting? Things like "if the afflicted party looks uncomfortable" seems rather vague, and just because I am offended doesn't mean the person receiving it is offended (I've known this to be the case). I'm honestly interested in knowing the best way to gauge when I should act without insulting people that are offended. I'm referring to the non-obvious…

"As an observer, when should I feel comfortable interjecting? "

When someones health, life or well being is on the line. I have seen too many women starting / acting scenes just to make some white knight to intervene. There was research where in public woman was being assaulted/abused by man and everyone intervened. Then they switched it around - NOONE CARED.

Besides, feminism was claiming how strong and able to defend themselves women are. So by interjecting you are being SEXIST.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#96

Post by illuminate »

lifbar wrote: post #72

Women want equal right but can't deal with such stuff and thus cries for help? If you can't deal with what you experience there - DON'T GO THERE. Simple. After all you go there just for fun. I was harassed by women and I learned to deal with that. Time women stopped crying and learned to take care of themselves if they want "equal" rights.

Harrassed for being a disturbed creep != having someone grope and put their mouth on you without your permission.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#97

Post by reinhardt »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

Ugh.. the last thing we need is to turn this into a general sexual attraction discussion about what (we think) works and what doesn't. It's a way more complex and controversial topic that we don't have to solve in order to address the "women in IT" problem when there is a much simpler solution:

DON'T TRY TO HIT ON WOMEN AT CONFERENCES OR OTHER BUSINESS/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENTS AT ALL. PERIOD.

There is no shortage of more appropriate times and places we can test our theories about alpha male behavior, aggressiveness or what have you. Hell, some venues are specifically intended for such endeavors! Use them!

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#98

Post by cbs »

agpen wrote: post #89
karinqe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a woman acts inappropriately towards a man, he rarely has any option to make her fuck off. "Men don't have to do it"? They can't. It's only that it happens less often (I guess). Seems to me that women have a lot more power in this regard.

When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men.

edit: I give up.

Who was I to think that the fact 1-in6 men are sexually abused while underage was a quick and easy response to a remark that men are not sexually assaulted in any real numbers.

I should have looked up the statistics on all demographics, because apparently that sexual abuse isn't good enough sexual abuse to refute the weight the parent poster was giving to the 1-in-4 women statistic.

Thanks sethg, I see clearly now.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#99

Post by RivieraKid »

boredguy8 wrote: post #79
RivieraKid wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I find the cards incredibly weird. I can imagine a class of 10-year-olds using them, but adults?

When adults are acting like 10-year-olds, maybe it's the perfect solution.

I think that's true only for a small minority...

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#100

Post by illuminate »

mindcrime wrote: post #74
Shoomz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really..."damned if you do, damned if you don't"? There are easy ways to approach women without worrying if you've crossed the line on your initial remarks. While you might have to be a mind-reader, at times, to know if they like you, you certainly don't have to be psychic to know if your remarks are offensive or rude.

Agreed. I was generalizing out of haste, since I didn't (and don't) have time to write a manifesto. :-)

Or your understanding is limited to hasty generalizations.
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