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Teaching LLMs how to solid model

willpatrick.xyz

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Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#91

Post by wavefrontbakc »

ben_w wrote: post #88
wavefrontbakc wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cost of mistakes is the major driving force behind where you can adopt tools like these. Generating a picture of a chair with five legs? No big deal. Generating supports for a bridge that'll collapse next week? Big problem. > It will point out things that are unclear, etc. You can go far beyond just micro managing incremental edits to some thing. When prompted an LLM will also point it out when it's perfe…

> I think the cost of mistakes is the major driving force behind where you can adopt tools like these. Generating a picture of a chair with five legs? No big deal. Generating supports for a bridge that'll collapse next week? Big problem Yes, indeed. But: Why can LLMs generally write code that even compiles? While I wouldn't trust current setups, there's no obvious reason why even a mere LLM cannot be used to explore…

>While I wouldn't trust current setups, there's no obvious reason why even a mere LLM cannot be used to explore the design space when the output can be simulated to test its suitability as a solution

Having to test every assertation sounds like a not particularly useful application, and the more variables there are the more it seems to be about throwing completely random things at the wall and hoping it works

You should use a tool for it's purpose, relying on text prediction to predict clarity is like relying on teams icons being green to actual productivity; a very vague, incidentally sometimes coinciding factor.

You could use text predictor for things that rely on "how would this sentence usually complete" and get right answers. But that is a very narrow field, I can mostly imagine entertainment benefiting a lot.

You could misuse text predictor for things like "is this alarming?" and get a response that is statistically likely in the training material, but could be completely inverse for the person asking, again having very high cost for failing to do what it was never meant to. You can often demonstrate the trap by re-rolling your answer for any question a couple times and seeing how the answer often varies mild-to-completely-reverse depending on whatever seed you land.

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#92

Post by esperent »

littlestymaar wrote: post #90
esperent wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Create a plastic enclosure sized to go under a desk, ok add a usb receptacle opening, ok add flanges with standard screw holes With vague specifications like these, you'd get garbage from a human too. What works for software, and I suspect for other technical fields like CAD too, is to treat it like a junior developer who has an extreme breadth of knowledge but not much depth. You will need to take care to clearly…

> With vague specifications like these, you'd get garbage from a human too. You'll never have better input than this at the beginning of any project from the person that brings the use-case. That's a full job to help them define the needs more accurately. And if you always work with clear specifications it's just because there's someone in front of you that has helped write the spec starting from the loose business r…

> You'll never have better input than this at the beginning of the project from the person that brings the use-case

That's as may be, but again, it's not much different to being a software developer.

Someone might ask you to create a website for their business. It's your job, as the expert, to use the available tools - including AI - to turn their requirements into working code. They might say "put a button for the shopping cart into the top right". It's then your job, as as the technical expert, to get that done. Even the laziest of devs wouldn't expect to just copy/paste that request into a AI tool and get a working result.

It takes time to learn to use these tools.

When I'm using AI to help me write code, depending on the complexity of what I'm working on, I generally write something very similar to what I'd write if I was asking other developers for help (although I can be much terser). I must specify the requirements very clearly and in technical language.

Usually I keep a basic prompt for every project that outlines the technical details, the project requirements, the tools and libraries being used, and so on. It's exactly the same information I'd need to document for another human working on the project (or for myself a year later) so there's no wasted work.

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#93

Post by [deleted] »

Animats wrote: post #62
phkahler wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I have come across a significant number of non engineers wanting to do, what ultimately involves some basic CAD modelling. I very much want Solvespace to be the tool for those people. It's very easy to learn and do the basics. But some of the bugs still need to get fixed (failures tend to be big problems for new users because without experience its hard to explain what's going wrong or a workaround) and we need a…

> I very much want Solvespace to be the tool for those people. Probably not. "Copyright 2008-2022 SolveSpace contributors. Most recent update June 2 2022."

[deleted]

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#94

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #75
abe_m wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is along the lines of the AI horseless carriage[1] topic that is also on the front page right now. You seem to be describing the current method as operated through an AI intermediary. I think the power in AI for CAD will be at a higher level than lines, faces and holes. It will be more along the lines of "make a bracket between these two parts". "Make this part bolt to that other part". "Attach this pump…

It's also going to be about diagnosing issues. "This part broke right here, explain why and come up with a solution", "Evaluate the robustness of this solution", "Can I save some material and reduce the weight", etc. Those are the kind of high level questions that an LLM with a decent understanding of CAD and design might be able to deal with soon and it will help speed up expensive design iterations. A neat trick wi…

> wanting AI to make decisions

That's a mega-yikes for me.

Go ahead and do something stupid like that for CEO or CTO decisions, I don't care.

But keep it out of industrial design, please. Lives are at stake.

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#95

Post by aredox »

ben_w wrote: post #88
wavefrontbakc wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cost of mistakes is the major driving force behind where you can adopt tools like these. Generating a picture of a chair with five legs? No big deal. Generating supports for a bridge that'll collapse next week? Big problem. > It will point out things that are unclear, etc. You can go far beyond just micro managing incremental edits to some thing. When prompted an LLM will also point it out when it's perfe…

> I think the cost of mistakes is the major driving force behind where you can adopt tools like these. Generating a picture of a chair with five legs? No big deal. Generating supports for a bridge that'll collapse next week? Big problem Yes, indeed. But: Why can LLMs generally write code that even compiles? While I wouldn't trust current setups, there's no obvious reason why even a mere LLM cannot be used to explore…

>Saying "just text prediction" understates how big a deal that is.

Here on HN we often see posts insisting on the importance of "first principles".

Your embrace of "magic" - an unknown black box who does seemingly wonderful things that usually blow up to one's face and have a hidden cost - is the opposite of that.

LLMs are just text prediction. That's what they are.

>Why can LLMs generally write code that even compiles?

Why can I copy-paste code and it compiles?

Try to use LLM on code there is little training material about - for example PowerQuery or Excel - and you will see it bullshit and fail - even Microsoft's own LLM.

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#96

Post by sharemywin »

wavefrontbakc wrote: post #85
Nevermark wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mostly the main limitation with LLMs is the imagination of the person using it. Ask the right questions and they get a lot more useful. Completely agree. We get waves of comments on HN downplaying model abilities or their value. Many people don’t seem to explore and experiment with them enough. I have 3 screens. The left one has two models on it. The right one has a model & a web browser for quick searches. I work…

I've only found useful answers for when I've begun something from completely zero. Things I've got even a reasonable grasp on I start to spot large dangerous holes a model very confidently claims is the right solution. Stuff like bringing camping stove inside a tent to avoid rainy weather, nevermind it being suicide at the same time. >I web search maybe 10% of what I did six months ago. Me too, though this is more dr…

I'm not sure what you used for it to tell you that?

what should I do with my camping stove if I want to avoid the rain

ChatGPT said: If you want to avoid the rain while using your camping stove, here are your best options:

Shelter Options: Use a Tarp: Set up a tarp high above your stove area with good airflow. Make sure it's not enclosed and water runs off away from you.

Camp Kitchen Tent: Lightweight pop-up canopies or dedicated camp kitchen shelters are perfect. Just make sure it’s ventilated.

Picnic Table Shelter: Many campgrounds have covered areas you can cook under — check for those.

Vestibule (Cautiously): If you have a tent with a large vestibule, you can use the stove there, only if it's very well-ventilated and you're extremely cautious (fire and carbon monoxide risks are real).

Important Safety Tips: Never use a stove inside a closed tent — risk of carbon monoxide poisoning and fire.

Keep the stove on a stable, flat surface.

Avoid cooking right under trees with low-hanging branches.

Ensure your shelter is tall enough — heat rises.

Would you like a quick sketch or image of a tarp setup that works well in rain?

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#97

Post by sharemywin »

wavefrontbakc wrote: post #84
jillesvangurp wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also going to be about diagnosing issues. "This part broke right here, explain why and come up with a solution", "Evaluate the robustness of this solution", "Can I save some material and reduce the weight", etc. Those are the kind of high level questions that an LLM with a decent understanding of CAD and design might be able to deal with soon and it will help speed up expensive design iterations. A neat trick wi…

I think the cost of mistakes is the major driving force behind where you can adopt tools like these. Generating a picture of a chair with five legs? No big deal. Generating supports for a bridge that'll collapse next week? Big problem. > It will point out things that are unclear, etc. You can go far beyond just micro managing incremental edits to some thing. When prompted an LLM will also point it out when it's perfe…

isn't it closer to concept prediction layered over top of text prediction because of the multiple levels? it compresses text into concepts using layers of embeddings and neural encoding then predicts the concept based on multiple areas of attention. then decompresses it to find the correct words to convey the concept.

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#98

Post by phkahler »

Animats wrote: post #62
phkahler wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I have come across a significant number of non engineers wanting to do, what ultimately involves some basic CAD modelling. I very much want Solvespace to be the tool for those people. It's very easy to learn and do the basics. But some of the bugs still need to get fixed (failures tend to be big problems for new users because without experience its hard to explain what's going wrong or a workaround) and we need a…

> I very much want Solvespace to be the tool for those people. Probably not. "Copyright 2008-2022 SolveSpace contributors. Most recent update June 2 2022."

Most recent commit to the repository: Last week. It's slow and has slowed the last couple years but it's still going.

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#99

Post by voidUpdate »

itissid wrote: post #25
alnwlsn wrote: post #21

The future: "and I want a 3mm hole in one side of the plate. No the other side. No, not like that, at the bottom. Now make it 10mm from the other hole. No the other hole. No, up not sideways. Wait, which way is up? Never mind, I'll do it myself." I'm having trouble understanding why you would want to do this. A good interface between what I want and the model I will make is to draw a picture, not write an essay. This…

> and I want a 3mm hole in one side of the plate. No the other side. No, not like that, at the bottom. Now make it 10mm from the other hole. No the other hole. No, up not sideways. One thing that is interesting here is you can read faster than TTS to absorb info. But you can speak much faster than you can type. So is it all that typing that's the problem or could be just an interface problem? and in your example, you…

And I can think faster than I can speak, which means it's easier for me to think about what I need to do and then do it, rather than type or speak to an LLM so they can work out what I need to do instead

Re: Teaching LLMs how to solid model

#100

Post by anthonyrstevens »

sharemywin wrote: post #96
wavefrontbakc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only found useful answers for when I've begun something from completely zero. Things I've got even a reasonable grasp on I start to spot large dangerous holes a model very confidently claims is the right solution. Stuff like bringing camping stove inside a tent to avoid rainy weather, nevermind it being suicide at the same time. >I web search maybe 10% of what I did six months ago. Me too, though this is more dr…

I'm not sure what you used for it to tell you that? what should I do with my camping stove if I want to avoid the rain ChatGPT said: If you want to avoid the rain while using your camping stove, here are your best options: Shelter Options: Use a Tarp: Set up a tarp high above your stove area with good airflow. Make sure it's not enclosed and water runs off away from you. Camp Kitchen Tent: Lightweight pop-up canopies…

I'm starting to think that many of the "But the AIs tell me I should drive my car off a cliff!!" posters are just making stuff up.
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