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Native visionOS platform support

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Re: Native visionOS platform support

#91

Post by mattlondon »

tim-- wrote: post #86
theshrike79 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Apple should do is drive a truckload of money on Valve's doorstep and get a Proton-like system built for M-series Macs.

They have done that. They gave some cash money to CodeWeavers, the company that created wine. It's called the Game Porting Toolkit: https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/

That's the problem I think: porting.

As I understand things, proton allows windows games to just work (pun intended) on Linux. No porting, no rebuild - just download and run.

Who is going to bother doing all the extra work to port their game for Mac?! Time and time again there have been loads of articles on here over the years with developers saying it is simply not worth the hassle to support Linux and Mac.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#92

Post by mattlondon »

fixprix wrote: post #18

Looks like Apple might be prioritizing gaming for the next gen Vision devices? Hopefully, as I know many, myself included that passed on the Vision because the gaming support wasn't there. Price was never an issue.

This to me smells of desperation - not so much as "prioritising gaming" and more "prioritising anyone making any kind of content at all please please please someone make something for our device".

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#93

Post by troupo »

andsoitis wrote: post #79
josephg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To think he and his team have not made intentional choices to support/advance or undermine OpenXR would be naïve in my view. I'm sure their choices are intentional. But thats just one business unit. Apple is a huge company. And different areas have different priorities.

Not relevant. The VisionOS crew have decided to not support OpenXR and Apple has broadly decided not to support Vulkan, which, together with DirectX are the primary VR rendering technologies.

> The VisionOS crew have decided to not support OpenXR and Apple has broadly decided not to support Vulkan

Because they already have their own graphics API called Metal. Why aren't you asking Microsoft to drop DirectX and start first-party support for Vulkan?

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#94

Post by troupo »

bigyabai wrote: post #63
josephg wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. Better get some blankets because Apple has made significant contributions to many open standards - for example, USB-C. And, back in the day, OpenGL. Its a mistake to think of a large company like apple as if it were a person, with their own goals and ideas. Apple is just too big for that. I mean, they have 164,000 staff. Tha…

I think people are (rightfully) upset at the business-oriented decisions that limit MacOS as a platform, prevent competition on iOS and demand annual tithes from their developers like they're peons tilling land for coin. These are fair criticisms, prosecuted in a few courts even, and well within the realm of reasonable change. Apple makes great things for their users when they collaborate with the industry. That's wh…

> That's why we're concerned when they abandon standards

Is DirectX a standard? Is Playstation NDK (or whatever it's called) a standard?

Vulkan is not a "standard". It's a designed-by-committee API that arrived on the scene years after "non-standard" APIs.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#95

Post by troupo »

andsoitis wrote: post #30
nopakos wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And since Apple is here, please help adding support for Apple TV. Apple and Android TV support sometimes makes the difference when choosing an engine.

Apple TV for games is super niche, with very little market share in the big scheme of things. Even when it comes to TV, Apple realized they had to create an Apple TV+ app for other platforms to extend the reach of their investment in shows/movies beyond their own hardware.

> Apple TV for games is super niche,

Apple TV is just a tale of so many missed opportunities.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#97

Post by Hamuko »

mattlondon wrote: post #91
tim-- wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have done that. They gave some cash money to CodeWeavers, the company that created wine. It's called the Game Porting Toolkit: https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/

That's the problem I think: porting. As I understand things, proton allows windows games to just work (pun intended) on Linux. No porting, no rebuild - just download and run. Who is going to bother doing all the extra work to port their game for Mac?! Time and time again there have been loads of articles on here over the years with developers saying it is simply not worth the hassle to support Linux and Mac.

>Who is going to bother doing all the extra work to port their game for Mac?!

So far at least Ubisoft, CAPCOM, Remedy, Kojima Productions and Hello Games.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#98

Post by meindnoch »

bigyabai wrote: post #58
eksu wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenGL is quite dated for VR/AR. In the Apple ecosystem they supported OpenGL 4.1 for quite some time before moving to Metal, which was announced 2 years before Vulkan. If you spent the time developing an in house graphics API since open standards weren’t moving forward, why would you rewrite everything a second time just a few years later? Shouldn’t you expect to get a decade or two out of your existing API and only…

In an ideal world, Apple would have just built DirectX and sold the Xbox too. But you can't look at it from an executive's perspective, you have to look at it from the developer's point-of-view. This insistence on high-investment, low-ROI APIs is why the Mac doesn't have games. If you run the Metal playbook with VR again, you will have developers outright abandon you. We've already seen what happens. Apple's GPUs sup…

>This insistence on high-investment, low-ROI APIs is why the Mac doesn't have games

Yeah, that's why iOS doesn't have any games either. /s

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#99

Post by drexlspivey »

andsoitis wrote: post #30
nopakos wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And since Apple is here, please help adding support for Apple TV. Apple and Android TV support sometimes makes the difference when choosing an engine.

Apple TV for games is super niche, with very little market share in the big scheme of things. Even when it comes to TV, Apple realized they had to create an Apple TV+ app for other platforms to extend the reach of their investment in shows/movies beyond their own hardware.

If they could just let Geforce Now (NVIDIA Cloud gaming platform) ship a native app I would use my Apple TV much more. But no, they prefer to be extremely hostile to users over some app store bs.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#100

Post by andsoitis »

troupo wrote: post #93
andsoitis wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not relevant. The VisionOS crew have decided to not support OpenXR and Apple has broadly decided not to support Vulkan, which, together with DirectX are the primary VR rendering technologies.

> The VisionOS crew have decided to not support OpenXR and Apple has broadly decided not to support Vulkan Because they already have their own graphics API called Metal. Why aren't you asking Microsoft to drop DirectX and start first-party support for Vulkan?

The reality is that virtual reality and gaming technology have largely converged on DirectX and Vulkan for rendering.

I can empathize with Apple’s desire to get more adoption of Metal, but I predict it is an uphill battle to insist on it on platforms like spatial computing that is already having a very hard time to win adoption.

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