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Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

theguardian.com

91–100 of 186 posts

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#91
It's not that Black Mirror is bad. It's that, as the article points out, we don't have a fictional vision of the future to use as a goal.

The author mentions Jill Lapore's 2017 article in the New Yorker, which is sort of a survey paper of dystopian fiction from that period.[1] No alternatives are presented.

For most of human history, the big problem was making enough stuff. There just wasn't any way to make enough stuff for everybody. In the 20th century, high volume manufacturing got going. By the 1950s, the US had this totally worked out. At long last, society really could make enough stuff for everybody. Science fiction of the 1950s is mostly utopian. With scarcity conquered, the future looked bright.

But it didn't work out.

Think about why for a while. I'll wait.

[1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/05/a-golden-age-f...

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#92
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a society where people can play back and re-live prior memories, it would not suddenly come up that one can relive experiences with past lovers. I am not much of a TV watcher so this is the only episode of black mirror I've seen but this really got me - for a show that got so much hype - this is the first couple to have jealousy issues around this technology? Really?? And he has to cut it out of his head with a…

My take was that it was not about jealousy or wanting to forget, but about the obsession for an objective truth. The main character was rewatching his memories looking for the objective truth of what had happened, only to discover that all his memories were, in fact, a lie (because his wife was lying to him all the time).

I agree with this take, aside from a plot nuance about all his memories, there was one base factual lie (paternity) that propagated through his memories. I also occasionally rewatch that episode to try to convince myself that the Willow Grain would not be a panacea for so many of the worlds ills that it would outweigh any shame-motivated reason to dislike it.

Put another way, easy and on-demand access to objective truth seems to present a resolution to so many stupid arguments that it just has to net out as a positive where people quit dying on rhetorically silly hills.

As you correctly identify the weakness is when you want access to the objective truth of another. They need not be inclined to share it and this presents a social issue, as opposed to a technical or factual issue.

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#93

I feel like a big problem in the modern world is the small scale of our dreams. Dreams drive us, they change the world. In 1865, French author Jules Verne decided to write a book to inspire people to dream big, impossible dreams. He decided to write a novel proving that humans could do anything- by describing how, if enough people worked together, they could journey all the way to the moon. This became one of the fir…

Star Trek has been hijacked by people who have no understanding whatsoever of the franchise's spirit. Perhaps this is a symptom of something deeper: not only are they unable to conceive of optimistic stories, they can't even imagine a dystopic original show. Instead, they resort to co-opting an existing franchise and disfiguring it.

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessary for a work of fiction to focus on diverse and realistic characters, particularly when its primary aim is to critique a specific aspect of technology. In such cases, characters often function as just means to highlight and amplify that central theme. Take 1984. It reads like a thought experiment reflecting the author's deepest fears about the dangers of unchecked power structures. Allegedly, Orwell’…

> But, 1984 also features a great protagonist and an absolutely haunting language. While many of the other characters mainly serve to convey the broader ideas, it’s him who grounds the story emotionally. His suffering, his moral collapse, and the eventual loss of his ability was so tough to read and will forever haunt me. When he breaks, it feels like a loss for all of humanity. But, what I mean is characters are not…

I kind of think both are true. I will remember Winston as great thinker who is extremely aware his world. And the tragedy or death of him is death of his awareness. His ability to think. In all the protagonist I have seen in tragedies, he is peculiar. While reviewing one another writer's work, Orwell said

> ‘... was a bad writer, and some inner trouble, sharpening his sensitiveness, nearly made him into a good one; his discontent healed itself, and he reverted to type. It is worth pausing to wonder in just what form the thing is happening to oneself.’

In the first act, the writing was so cold and I could not feel any connection to Winston. Even, when getting intimate with Julia, he is thinking,

> In the old days, he thought, a man looked at a girl’s body and saw that it was desirable, and that was the end of the story. But you could not have pure love or pure lust nowadays. No emotion was pure, because everything was mixed up with fear and hatred. Their embrace had been a battle, the climax a victory. It was a blow struck against the Party. It was a political act.

I don't know when I started to feel things and empathize with him so much. When you think about circumstances and how he feels, he is cold as it gets, always scheming.

And in the most hopeful time of his life, he say these

> ‘We are the dead,’ he said.

> ‘We’re not dead yet,’ said Julia prosaically.

> ‘Not physically. Six months, a year – five years, conceivably. I am afraid of death. You are young, so presumably you’re more afraid of it than I am. Obviously we shall put it off as long as we can. But it makes very little difference. So long as human beings stay human, death and life are the same thing.’

But, when you think of an inner life, he has one of the richest and rare ones. We empathize with that, and when crystal ball falls, it was the most tragic thing I have experienced. I think, genius of Orwell is that he made the character and the idea indistinguishable.

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#95

I disagree with the premise of this article. Sometimes an extremely pessimistic vision of a possible future CAN change things...by making it so people are determined to fight to prevent that possible future from ever happening. The novel 1984 by George Orwell was published in 1948. It is an extremely pessimistic vision of a possible future for mankind....and many of us over the generations who read it really really d…

>> many of us over the generations who read it really really did not want to live in such a future You live in exactly that future. The screens that you watch, watch you. You can't escape them in your own home, let alone in public. Words are redefined by the elite at their whim, as they were in the novel. Very few would dare to publicly align themselves with the nation which we have always been at war with. You live…

If we did, you wouldn't be able to post this comment.

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#96
post #20

"Absent is the plot twist of Pandora’s box that made it philosophically useful: the box also contained hope and opportunity that new knowledge brings." Yes, add that and it might be something interesting but sure not the Black Mirror I want to watch. I mean it is called Black Mirror for a reason. And it is not even true. Take the episode "San Junipro" for example? Isn't there some hope and opportunity in it? And yet,…

I dunno about you, but I don't care about a computer program that believes it's me living on after I die. You can wrap it with all the feel good trappings you want, that set of bits is not you. If anything, living a life in a way that you put off doing the fun things until the after life, spiritual or digital, sounds awful.

> You can wrap it with all the feel good trappings you want, that set of bits is not you.

If there's a continuity of experience from your present day life to your virtual life, if the virtual version shares all your memories, hopes, fears, thought patterns... Then in what way is it not you?

Do you also think that "reconstructive teleporting" would build another person but that person would not be you?

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#97
post #80
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno about you, but I don't care about a computer program that believes it's me living on after I die. You can wrap it with all the feel good trappings you want, that set of bits is not you. If anything, living a life in a way that you put off doing the fun things until the after life, spiritual or digital, sounds awful.

> I dunno about you, but I don't care about a computer program that believes it's me living on after I die. 1% of your cells are replaced daily. Presumably you still believe you're you even though much of you is constantly being replaced. If it were an option would you really deny your future self an arbitrarily long happy life because you got hung up on Theseus's Paradox?

I don't remember the part of that scenario where a scan is taken of the ship and uploaded to a server.

I long ago accepted that my image of self is a sort of illusion. That things I consider other, like microbes in my gut, constitute a large portion of me. And I change over time. Even the memories I have are copies of copies.

But all that happens in a continuity. Being uploaded is a stark difference and a disconnect that I cannot philosophically reconcile.

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take was that it was not about jealousy or wanting to forget, but about the obsession for an objective truth. The main character was rewatching his memories looking for the objective truth of what had happened, only to discover that all his memories were, in fact, a lie (because his wife was lying to him all the time).

This sounds vaguely similar to the plot of The Final Cut. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Cut_(2004_film)

The EYE Tech Zoe implant and the Willow Grain were similar but the Willow Grain was usable by the users while installed and the Zoe was generally only accessible after it had been extracted from the user after the user had died.

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#99
post #14

Huh, i guess i both agree and disagree with this article. I disagree that black mirror has to save the world. Art doesn't have to literally save the world to be useful, it just has to add to the conversation. The fact we are talking about it proves that it has. On the other hand, i've never really liked black mirror that much. It feels polemical to me. Its unrelenting pessimism robs it of nuance, which makes it feel…

The part I don't like about it is that the premise is too often: "Imagine some theoretical technological advancement. Now take it out of context, put it in the worst possible circumstances, and imagine it appeared into a society like ours without any prior thought or discussion about the possible downsides of that technology." For example: in a society where autonomous security guard robots kill intruders, there woul…

> without any prior thought or discussion about the possible downsides

In BM's defense, I think it needs to be that way to a point, to have the viewer react and acknowledge these downsides within their current frame of reference.

It can be hard to swallow both a world that has evolved for 10~20 years, and also think about a whole new paradigm that matches that unfamiliar world.

Re: Black Mirror's pessimism porn won't lead us to a better future

#100
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel my social circle is like that. I mean, you're right that there are plenty of people as you describe, but I like to think that I surround myself with people for which that does not match (not always successfully when I was younger, but you learn as you grow older). As such, bawolff's point resonates with me. And even if that wasn't the case, they still have a good point. If you pick terrible protagonists…

Yea, I do the same, I try to surround myself with positive people. Friends I choose, local businesses I frequent. But there are some forced interactions (like kid's school friends' parents for example) where you have no choice to have to interact with terrible people. My recollection is that niceness used to be the default in random people you might meet. But that's not been true for about the last ten years or so. Y…

I don't know where you are located. But, in my experience living in a major city you can walk past 1000 perfectly nice people in a day and also one or two jerks. Who do you remember five days later? Do you remember Nice Person #385? Inconsequential Person #722? No. You remember Jerk #3. He sticks with you for a long time.
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