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Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

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Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. It's necessary to teach oversimplified things to small minds, even oversimplified to the extent of being incorrect. It's unlikely you understand relativistic mechanics unless you learn and practice Newtonian for a few years, then many people stop there and never go for relativism. It's unlikely you understand Peano axioms without first spending years just working with numbers, completely disregar…

To be fair, "functional analysis is infinite dimensional linear algebra" is a saying for a reason, that's an intuition a good professor should have given you. Mine gave me it so well, I still see no difference between R^n and a Hilbert space! (on the dangers of intuitions) This reminds me of a short lived stretch in French mathematical education, the "Bourbaki years". For those unaware, Nicolas Bourbaki was "a dozen…

> To be fair, "functional analysis is infinite dimensional linear algebra" is a saying for a reason, that's an intuition a good professor should have given you. Mine gave me it so well, I still see no difference between R^n and a Hilbert space! (on the dangers of intuitions)

That's the thing: not only he didn't share this intuition, he actively prohibited people from bringing it up in the class because it can lead to mistakes.

The program was to start with most generic cases (Banach spaces, metric spaces) and prove whatever is provable there, then continue adding assumptions one by one and proving stronger and stronger theorems. I think we've reached Hilbert spaces by the end of the year and that was a gotcha moment for many students (wait, these vectors were functions the whole time?), but it was too late. Everyone failed miserably at proving or understanding all the preceding theorems because without the intuition it turns into a game of symbols with no structure or hope. The only recourse were those bootleg analogies from finite spaces and Fourier analysis that a few students knew or came up with.

The "New Math" you mention above gives a good frame of reference. A beautiful curriculum that's almost impossible to understand unless you already learned math the normal way -- a formally incorrect and inconsistent but reliable way.

I also made similar mistake myself when I tried to teach the C language to 12 y.o kids without saying the dreaded "just write it like that, you'll understand later". That experiment failed completely but I only understood why two years later when I myself was subjected to the functional analysis course. Or I think the complete realization came to me even later, with the C language experiment and the functional analysis story becoming pieces of the same puzzle.

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. It's necessary to teach oversimplified things to small minds, even oversimplified to the extent of being incorrect. It's unlikely you understand relativistic mechanics unless you learn and practice Newtonian for a few years, then many people stop there and never go for relativism. It's unlikely you understand Peano axioms without first spending years just working with numbers, completely disregar…

It wouldn't be so nice if it was oversimplified and incorrect to the extent that the child realizes it doesn't add up.

Doing this would create a nice opportunity to teach the right and wrong ways to move the needle in scientific discourse (e.g. don't start by holding a press conference about cold fusion).

Graduation could mean an overthrowing of the known-wrong models. Congratulations, here are the next known-wrong models. Now prove these wrong.

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#93
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People gain understanding when we relate things to their frame of reference. Kids have very limited life experience and their frame of reference is very low. Introducing new concepts that are not relatable would create huge gaps in real understanding. For example, explaining encryption as a lock to prevent thieves from stealing data is much more understandable to kids than going into actual definition of encryption.…

Except encryption is nothing like a lock, and "stealing data" is a problematic term, as it's stretching the concept of theft way past its common meaning - it's using the term "stealing" in the exact same way people saying "software piracy is stealing" are. So that's already providing completely twisted mental model to kids. And it stems in big part from trying to pass one specific application as an answer to what the…

[deleted]

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#94

Discussions about classifying the domains of life aside, this article implies that there was, or could have been entire domains that are now extinct. Is this the case?

That's really hard to answer without tackling the classification question head on. Do you mean groups that "would have" been considered a domain if humans had been around at the time? Or groups that are in some sense different from other domains to the same degree those domains are from each other? Whether we tag something as a domain also depends on its abundance and/or visibility. I bet if you take dug into microor…

In my draft reply, I was going to add "is this even the right question", meaning "is the taxonomy more of a human construct than a natural one". It seems the answer is yes.

>Or groups that are in some sense different from other domains to the same degree those domains are from each other?

This.

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm torn on this one, because there's no way I can accept "lies-to-children are for their own good", but on the other hand I'd hate to be overburdened with information about Peanut maximums or the Ophthalmic supergroup when all I wanted to know was how to do division or what kind of thing a mushroom is.

It's not hard. "It's sort of like that, but the details are complicated and you'll learn them later if you want" is a perfectly fine answer. A big difference between a lie and a simplification is whether the other party knows it's a simplification. Communicating that is independent of specific simplification you use, and it's sometimes as easy as saying "is mostly like" / "sorta" instead of "is".

I was learned enough in school to know when teachers were “teaching” something oversimplified. They uniformly acknowledged that when asked, until one didn’t. That one didn’t care about the nuance and insisted I give the “expected” answer when asked and ruined my attitude in school for years (not the only event, but it didn’t help). Obviously I’ve never forgotten her.

One thing I adore about this community is the broad acceptance of “I don’t know” and “it depends” as the starting point for answers.

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there are viruses, which don't show up on the tree of life at all because there's no consensus that they even constitute "life."

Pretty sure anyone who knows anything about viruses would say they are alive. Or at least as alive as parasitic nano archaea with genomes smaller than the viruses living right next to them... The philosophical way to look at it is humans aren't alive in the space between planets they live inside these little hard shells, then when they get to a planet they go wild using all the other resources around them made of bio…

If humans create oxygen with a machine, is that parasitic?

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my limited experience (being a child and raising one child) I would say that the problem is more that we (as adults) pretend that the simplified thing is the whole picture. Every time someone told me: "this is a simplified version to give you a basic understanding and later you will be able to learn more accurate versions" that was tremendously helpful and sometimes it sparked my curiosity and motivated me to lo…

When I moved to the US in 3rd grade, I was marked wrong for putting negative numbers as answers on a math test. The correct answer was "You can't subtract a larger number from a smaller number".

I had a similar experience, but was fortunate that the teacher took me aside and explained that I was right but they were teaching a simplified version. In hindsight that was really a helpful approach.

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#98
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except encryption is nothing like a lock, and "stealing data" is a problematic term, as it's stretching the concept of theft way past its common meaning - it's using the term "stealing" in the exact same way people saying "software piracy is stealing" are. So that's already providing completely twisted mental model to kids. And it stems in big part from trying to pass one specific application as an answer to what the…

Substitution is a new concept for kids. Not something they can readily understand. So you need to explain that in terms of a game. Kids know what secrets are. But from their point of view, why even talk about it if it is secret? Why can't we go to another place and talk secretly? Why do we need to talk secrets in public using substitution? Since they do not see obvious need for it in their daily life and there are wo…

> Substitution is a new concept for kids.

Children learn substitution with language. Hand signs and words are substituted for the objects, feelings and actions they know inherently. It’s tempting to apply adult context on children but it’s a mistake.

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#99

Prototaxites, an ancient treetrunk-mushroom-like organism that preceded land plants about 400M yr ago. Its fossils contained plantlike lignin instead of funguslike chitin or chitosan. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.03.14.643340v1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototaxites

hilarious:

John William Dawson, a Canadian scientist, studied Prototaxites fossils, which he described as partially rotten giant conifers, containing the remains of the fungi which had been decomposing them. This concept was not disputed until 1872, when the rival scientist William Carruthers poured ridicule on the idea. ... Dawson fought adamantly to defend his original interpretation until studies of the microstructure made it clear that his position was untenable, whence he promptly attempted to rename the genus himself, calling it Nematophyton ("stringy plant"), and denying with great vehemence that he had ever considered it to be a tree.

Re: Giant, fungus-like organism may be a completely unknown branch of life

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there are viruses, which don't show up on the tree of life at all because there's no consensus that they even constitute "life."

Pretty sure anyone who knows anything about viruses would say they are alive. Or at least as alive as parasitic nano archaea with genomes smaller than the viruses living right next to them... The philosophical way to look at it is humans aren't alive in the space between planets they live inside these little hard shells, then when they get to a planet they go wild using all the other resources around them made of bio…

> Pretty sure anyone who knows anything about viruses would say they are alive

Whilst I don't doubt that, viruses don't abide by typical definitions of life that would include self-replication. Obviously, they do replicate, but not by themselves.

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