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The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

91–100 of 695 posts

Re: The Burnout Machine

#91
post #74
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

love those flying goalposts. i guess "tech" is different enough from other kinds of labor that it's special? ok: IFPTE, UAW, CWA (which just recently welcomed workers in the video game industry: https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/video-game-workers-launc ...) edit: Alphabet Workers Union under CWA, Riot Games under UAW, Tech Workers Coalition

Yeah but the question is "are there any examples where unions obviously helped the workers". You responded "blue collar unions", where there's a pretty common perception that they did help, but when it comes to white collar unions you can only come up with examples that aren't really known for having done anything. UAW isn't even white-collar.

the "tech industry" is somehow totally isolated and completely different from all other types of labor in the history of the united states? how?

here's an answer i gave to this question downstream: "the Riot Games union is bargaining for better pay and less brutal working hours. at Blizzard they did employee walkouts, leading to better pay and changes in work culture. at Kickstarter they negotiated better remote work policies and reduction of discriminatory actions."

Re: The Burnout Machine

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union doesn't have to be "workers for company X employees". It can be "web developers union" or similar - this is how the trades organize (see the pipefitters, and IBEW for some examples). Neat thing about this type of organizing is that the union provides training and standardization paths. Both of those make moving between jobs easier. They can also provide a standardized way of differentiating employee levels (e…

I quite like the idea of a trade union or accreditation board for SWE. The idea that we all work by a shared set of standards and terminology is appealing.

Sounds like a group that captures credentialing in the industry and then winds up using it to push their own flawed ideology on the entire industry. Because who else would actually be interested in being part of such a board.

No thank you.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#93
post #74
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

love those flying goalposts. i guess "tech" is different enough from other kinds of labor that it's special? ok: IFPTE, UAW, CWA (which just recently welcomed workers in the video game industry: https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/video-game-workers-launc ...) edit: Alphabet Workers Union under CWA, Riot Games under UAW, Tech Workers Coalition

Yeah but the question is "are there any examples where unions obviously helped the workers". You responded "blue collar unions", where there's a pretty common perception that they did help, but when it comes to white collar unions you can only come up with examples that aren't really known for having done anything. UAW isn't even white-collar.

The whole conversation is about the novelty and usefulness of something that doesn't exist in the mainstream. Those who are skeptical can eternally say "show me more examples". Maybe your critique isn't as useful as you think it is.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#94

This write up sounds like it describes a very particular subset of companies. If you only want to work at the flashy unicorns in downtown San Francisco, you are signing yourself up for exploitation. Like any career, if you get off the beaten path there are plenty of pretty okay jobs out there. Especially if you have a marketable skill. This is software, if you have a brain and functional hands - you already own the m…

A union doesn't have to be "workers for company X employees". It can be "web developers union" or similar - this is how the trades organize (see the pipefitters, and IBEW for some examples). Neat thing about this type of organizing is that the union provides training and standardization paths. Both of those make moving between jobs easier. They can also provide a standardized way of differentiating employee levels (e…

> It can be "web developers union" or similar - this is how the trades organize (see the pipefitters, and IBEW for some examples).

This is also how unions exist in most of the rest of the world as well. We take it for granted how weird the US labor recognition process is.

Most other countries following a long history of craft unionism. But in the US the laws were crystalized during a time of active conflict between traditional craft unions and socialist-inspired "industrial" unions. So all of the principles of the NLRB are this weird set of dated compromises.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_federation_competition_i...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craft_unionism

Re: The Burnout Machine

#95
post #60
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_St... pretty much every team in blue collar industries which have been able to negotiate better working conditions, better pay, and more time off.

But tech isn't a blue collar industry, and this is about tech unions.

We don’t have feathers in our caps. Blue, white, red, whatever - we are all resources working for the capitalists, and should try to learn whatever we can from each other.

So, why are there no major tech unions specifically? Tech is a “new” field (relatively speaking), is generally well paid, and comes with relatively better benefits compared to other fields. This is not something inherent to the field: it’s just a supply vs. demand thing combined with easy access to money (low rates, VCs, etc).

Unions will start to become more prominent as shit hits the fan for us tech workers. Because without a unifying threat, there is no realistic way to convince a bunch of people who are living relatively well to join forces - as demonstrated by this thread.

Unfortunately, the existence of a common threat is necessary imo but not sufficient (in the US at least), as we’ve witnessed over the past few years of layoffs and forced RTO.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#96
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great. Show me examples of teams who took that bet and how it paid off.

Are you working 7 days a week in horrific circumstances? Do you have children as your colleagues? No? That’s due to unions and labourers fighting for the rights you currently have.

> Do you have children as your colleagues?

Well...

Re: The Burnout Machine

#97
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a union shop and I admit that it doesn't seem to have all the problems I have with the big tech. People seem to care and have passion, but don't pretend to work 80 hours a week, some of them at least. Some of them are decades older then me. Nobody is ever fired, but it somehow pays well above the median pay, but not comparable to the big tech.

Where is this myth about 80 hour weeks at big tech coming from? Is it all Amazon folks assuming it's the same everywhere else?

I don't take the 80 hours thingy at face value, I take it as something people bullshit one another about. I would not even buy 16 hours working week at face value. Nobody does that much actual software making day in day out for years.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#98
The VC funded startup unicorn game is not helping the world. The paragraph on not being able to say no to questionable products is interesting. It's similar in structure at nations under a ruler. That said, we're not starving, so we might as well redirect our resources toward more useful for humans, society (and even the planet).

Re: The Burnout Machine

#99
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is the idea that there’s something that can magically solve all your problems. If you believe in panaceas, everything will disappoint you. Unions are a tool , and tools have tradeoffs. They will be able to solve some of your problems — most importantly, the power imbalance between employer and employee — and introduce new ones you didn’t have before. The bet is that if we collectively use unions correctly,…

Great. Show me examples of teams who took that bet and how it paid off.

The following is my personal experience being part of a collective bargaining union (OPSEU local 598), which encompassed a few hundred workers for Ontario Teachers Pension Plan, in Toronto Ontario, from 2007-2017. I worked in IT for the duration of my employment (although not all union members were IT - but a lot were.)

The good:

- An elected collective bargaining team negotiated for us every ~5 years, and came up with a collective bargaining agreement (CBA). This allowed the members to express their desires for what they wanted (although not all requests were brought up in bargaining, and had to be agreed to to be ratified), which were generally listened to

- On-call compensation was set out as part of that agreement, and was the most generous I've experienced in my 25+ year career.

- Members could file grievances with the union regarding work conditions, or unfair treatment of the workers (I don't recall hearing of this ever happening, but there were processes in place for it)

- Health benefits were good, if not the best I've seen

- You could get two pay bumps per year, one that all union members got that was set aside in the CBA, and another moving you up a spot in your pay band (but only if you were not at the top of your salary band)

The bad:

- Union dues, while not huge, were yet another noticeable deduction from each pay

- When at the top of your salary band, you only got the one cost of living adjustment per year. There was no automatic way of moving to the next salary band

- Getting promoted means applying for internally posted positions (which all employees can apply for), and successfully being hired in to that position. This is the only way to move up salary bands, and you could only move up one pay slot in the new band (as they overlapped between bands). This really limited upwards career growth, and meant that leaving the company was the only way to get double-digit pay increases (or move in to management, which was outside the union)

- Our CBA strangely didn't cover / prevent layoffs of staff (although other union CBAs certainly do - so this is just my own experience), so I was one of the 100+ members that were laid off when a new VP decided to outsource a bunch of our roles to Tata Consultancy Services in India. There were provisions in place given my seniority that would have made a more junior union members have to be laid off in place of me (so I could take over their role instead), however I opted to take my severance package as I was ready to move on.

So to summarize - unions are definitely a mixed bag in my experience. I can appreciate the good they can do (and different CBAs will result in wildly different experiences), but from what I've personally seen, they generally function to treat all workers in a similar way: not rewarding the best, and not really punishing the worst.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#100
Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation.

> We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion."

Yet, it is up to us. In some software jobs (AAA game dev and a certain type of startup), you are expected to crunch beyond limits. In other places, you can have a typical 40h/week job at a salary way better than the average 9-5 job. Or you can freelance a dozen hours a week and live in a remote cottage. Or work from Thailand when it's winter. Or take a gap year to regenerate, or reinvent, yourself.

Not many career choices support this freedom. In some (e.g., medical careers), grind is not optional—you won't finish university, you won't get established, and that's the end of the story. In many other jobs, if you were freelancing a dozen hours a week, you would literally not be able to afford food. In many professions, quitting means the end of a career - or at least a serious setback; in tech, it means getting many messages on LinkedIn.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for criticism of grind and exploitation. But let's not paint ourselves, members of one of the most privileged occupations, as victims of the global system.

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