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The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

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Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#91
post #86
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One reason I like reading is that, if I don't understand I cannot move on to next step Yes, you can. You can even skim—or entirely skip—whole sections.

But with reading it's more of an active or deliberate choice. With listening or watching it "just happens" naturally as the medium progresses. I'm also a slow learner (and reader) so I think reading also suits me better because I allows me to control the pace better.

You've never gotten distracted while reading and then found that you've scanned over a bunch of text while thinking about something else?

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#92
post #38

Don't know about you guys, but reading has become more and more of a burden for me. It is as if -- I have greatly narrowed my interest such that most books are not interesting any more. Even the sci-fi and fantasy books, once I loved, lost their magic. Nowadays there are only two types of books that excite me: 1) those about software/hardware engineering, such as iWoz(I even bought a few Tom Swift JR books for my son…

The question is, have you stopped reading same-ish books only to watch same-ish TV series? While various obligations can reduce your entertainment time, I've noticed that most people complaining about that tend to be able to list tens of Netflix series that they watched. And then wonder why I have no idea what they're talking about and when I have time to read. > Even the sci-fi and fantasy books, once I loved, lost…

> Have they, or have you finished all the great books that were published before the present, and now need to wait for someone to write new great books?

I know that for me, the kind of books I used to like lost appeal. I would read them multiple times, but I just do not find them pleasurable anymore. It is not about me finishing all the great books humanity wrote up to now. It is about me changing.

For the record, the same thing happened with some movies/series. They used to be super great, when I am trying to rewatch they are not.

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a personal take. I agree if you are actively participating and grappling with the material in your mind. One reason I like reading is that, if I don't understand I cannot move on to next step. So, it forces me to actively participate, argue and understand the text. In audio and visual medium, it is somewhat easier to trick myself into following the flow without actually understanding. I heard, that is why Fey…

Similar to other commenters I disagree. You can definitely read without parsing and just “move on”. Or accept a superficial understanding and fail to see the deeper point. Philosophy might be a good domain to see this happen with - read the words but don’t parse the meaning.

> Similar to other commenters I disagree. You can definitely read without parsing and just “move on”.

What do you disagree with? Nobody said that reading makes you immune to moving on without understanding.

What they said was that while reading it is possible to pause if you don't understand something and move on when you are ready to move on. That's harder to do in videos or lectures. Do you disagree with this?

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#94

I think reading is an essential skill, but we also need to get reading out of the pedestal. Because a lot of the time these arguments come across as some sort of literary elitism. Like if you're not ingesting information through reading, it doesn't count. This month I spent many hours listening to lectures on youtube about geopolitics on the Asian continent from the naval war college. Sure I could have read it, but n…

I always love this conversation: Snob: "Listening to an audio book doesn't count as reading the book!" Everyone else in the world: "k"

I cannot say what works for other people. For me, unless I’m reading with my eyeballs, taking notes, and working examples, I’m not really convinced I’m learning anything difficult.

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always love this conversation: Snob: "Listening to an audio book doesn't count as reading the book!" Everyone else in the world: "k"

I cannot say what works for other people. For me, unless I’m reading with my eyeballs, taking notes, and working examples, I’m not really convinced I’m learning anything difficult.

disagree. You just have to actively listen, and cannot let your mind wander. you can also read and have no idea what you just read if you let your mind wander. Currently learning spanish via a podcast and its very effective, I just have to pause and rewind constantly to make sure I fully understand whats going on

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#96

I think reading is an essential skill, but we also need to get reading out of the pedestal. Because a lot of the time these arguments come across as some sort of literary elitism. Like if you're not ingesting information through reading, it doesn't count. This month I spent many hours listening to lectures on youtube about geopolitics on the Asian continent from the naval war college. Sure I could have read it, but n…

This is a personal take. I agree if you are actively participating and grappling with the material in your mind. One reason I like reading is that, if I don't understand I cannot move on to next step. So, it forces me to actively participate, argue and understand the text. In audio and visual medium, it is somewhat easier to trick myself into following the flow without actually understanding. I heard, that is why Fey…

> In audio and visual medium, it is somewhat easier to trick myself into following the flow without actually understanding.

That just means exploiting the medium to full potential hasn't been normalized yet. Much like with the books, you can pause video and audio. And, much like with books, you can go through the material once to get the high-level overview, and then play it again to learn more, now that you have better feel for how things fit.

I've noticed that both pausing to think and playing the same work couple times in a short succession, are something people are reluctant to do. Writing this, I've noticed that myself I am reluctant to do it too, for no apparent reason. Might be because people my age and older, we weren't forced to learn from videos or audio during school and university years, so we didn't internalize the same consumption patterns as we did with books.

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#97

I think reading is an essential skill, but we also need to get reading out of the pedestal. Because a lot of the time these arguments come across as some sort of literary elitism. Like if you're not ingesting information through reading, it doesn't count. This month I spent many hours listening to lectures on youtube about geopolitics on the Asian continent from the naval war college. Sure I could have read it, but n…

I do think people writ large do not read enough, there has been a lot of knowledge already written down and many engineers and researchers I work with would rather do than read. And the most detailed information is written, not in other forms. But I love video/audio too, it is often presented in a much more accessible form than papers.

But the people who put reading on a pedestal also need to remember that reading is still subservient to doing, because that is where theory meets reality and reality is not usually kind to theory.

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#98
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I'm somewhere in between about Audio books. First of all, for some books, that's great. Esp, if read by a good voice actor. It can convert a book to radio theater, that's magic. However, if you're listening while you're driving, or being distracted, you lose the some parts of the picture. Lastly, not all books are good audio books. Some of them need stopping, reflecting, and some re-reading sometimes. So, h…

I'm paying more attention to an audiobook in my car than at a book in a busy place.

As long as you're paying more attention to the road than to your audiobook...

That's the main reason I never got into audiobooks and podcasts. They engage my brain just enough to prevent multitasking, but not enough to stop a part of me from getting bored and restless.

Similar to most work meetings when I'm not presenting or otherwise directly involved in specific topics under discussion. It's a pain.

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#99

I think reading is an essential skill, but we also need to get reading out of the pedestal. Because a lot of the time these arguments come across as some sort of literary elitism. Like if you're not ingesting information through reading, it doesn't count. This month I spent many hours listening to lectures on youtube about geopolitics on the Asian continent from the naval war college. Sure I could have read it, but n…

I always love this conversation: Snob: "Listening to an audio book doesn't count as reading the book!" Everyone else in the world: "k"

I tend to rewind audio books and re listen to the last minute or two or three.

Ten years ago I read James Joyce’s Ulysses as a book. I enjoyed it, but when I listened to it as an audio book a year later, the excellent actors/voice artists really brought it to life for me.

I often self describe myself as a ‘gentleman scientist’ because for many years I have done my own research, sometimes in areas where I had no interest in practical application. I also believe that the act of writing is crucial to thinking (I have written 20+ books, 2500+ blog articles). I think too many people put too much emphasis on “work” vs. just living: averaging only ‘working’ about 60% of my adult life has made room for other activitites.

Re: The Lost Art of Research as Leisure

#100
post #84

I read a fair amount and I actually do research as leisure all the time, but I can’t stand these elitist and unoriginal think pieces about how much better and cooler this person’s habits are than yours. >> for the leisurely researcher, self-study must include the discipline’s foundational texts I feel like this person has some kind of dark academia aesthetic fetish that they need to hold onto to feel superior to ever…

I think you're generally right about the OP, but I don't see your alternative method as a tonic to the problem the author is discussing. I agree that treating reading as the only way to ingest information is probably wrong, and that the original post tends towards hierarchy in an almost reactionary way, yet at the same time I also see that many people tend to ingest information from other forms of media less critically than they might a book or written piece. I think this dichotomy derives from the different levels of focus we apply to different activities. Reading, even for leisure, demands a level of effort that forces you to focus and, in a way, analyze the information you're ingesting. By removing that barrier, you might fail to fully grasp the ideas that the primary source expressed.

In your use case, the LLM can be a great tool to get a start, but it's much easier to accept that output uncritically, which is especially problematic because it bears the biases of the training corpus. Sure, you can mitigate that issue if you're driven by the intellectual curiosity to dig deeper, which it seems you are, but at that point aren't you doing the kind of leisure research that the original post is talking about anyway? You're just using the initial steps to discover the "foundational texts", as the original post puts it, of the field. The LLM step becomes less material to the follow-up reading you've done after the fact.

Many, perhaps even most people will not make it to the second step. I see the lack of intellectual curiosity as a problem of focus more than anything else, and in my experience the overly rich media landscape of the internet does not concentrate that focus in most people.

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