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Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

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Re: Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

#91
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be both - just because it's legal for MPEG-LA to act that way it doesn't require them to do so

No, but human nature is such that all it takes is a handful of unscrupulous people who see laws that they can use to their financial advantage. We can certainly assign blame to the people who work for MPEG-LA/Via-LA, but ultimately there will always be organizations like that as long as the law allows or incentivizes that sort of thing. If we care about outcomes, the only thing to do is get the law changed so compani…

The ability to create limited-liability corporations at will encourages certain kinds of unethical behaviour, where you grab unethical nickels until you're hit by the steamroller of the law but still come out ahead. We should indeed be looking to get the law changed so companies like that can't exist; part of that should be reserving limited liability for entities that create a corresponding public interest benefit rather than handing it out like candy.

Re: Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

#92

I had never heard of ffmpeg until yesterday. In fact, I just Googled the term because I _still_ wasn't sure what it was beyond a dependency required to utilize a huggingface model I was testing. And now here we are... Farewell FFmpegKit. You will be missed.

Every media processing or delivery service you've interacted with in the last decade is a lib-ffmpeg wrapper, including broadcast TV, streaming, or anything remotely related to re-encoding video. I'm only being slightly hyperbolic, FFMpeg is ubiquitous.

Re: Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

#93

I was under the impression you can't ship FFMPEG in an app on iOS/tvOS/iPadOS anyway given FFMPEG is licensed as LGPL.

While there might be incompatibilities with GPL and the App Store due to Apple’s insistence that developers must accept Apple’s terms to run Xcode and apps on developer devices, LGPL and other open source licenses are generally compatible with the App Store and Apple’s licenses. You can ship programs that use open source or are themselves open source within closed ecosystems by providing source code to end users via…

How do I relink a random app on the app store with my own version an LGPL library? This is what it comes down to.

Re: Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

#94
post #52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m frustrated that society has no way to compensate people that do creative work for a living other than the same mechanism that virii like this extract money from other people’s work using a paper turnstile and heavy penalties for violations. Steam, YouTube, Instagram, Patreon, BandCamp, commissions... The creator economy is booming and is on the rise. I've seen some metrics say it's got a 40% CAGR. MrBeast, Psyc…

'MrBeast' please don't compare this nonsense to creativity. He's a business man, and an extremely dishonest one [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dslLBsHkVzE ]. A genius at 'optimising' 'content' for 'the algorithm'. The man has not one creative or artistic bone in his body. It's enormously disingenuous to compare the rise of hucksters like this to artists or creative professionals. Further - gaming has just seen the…

Additionally, Mr. Beast and other “content creators” are really just the face of small-to-medium-sized companies with brands established in much lower-competition markets with much lower standards and almost certainly could not recreate that success today as indie YouTubers, etc. Beast had over 250 employees as of a 2023 interview with a former employee. At one point I saw more 3D generalist ads for positions in his thumbnails department than from most huge studios, and they’re not looking for one-off work from freelancers— they’ve got an established 3D pipeline set up and they’re looking for full time staff that have experience with it. For THUMBNAILS. So now, when you’re starting out, you’re competing for search results space and recommendations with corporate, or legacy-media-backed marketing agencies presenting themselves as independent creators. Good. Fucking. Luck.

The only naive “Kumbaya, my lord” perspective around here is that the current “creative” tooling the corporate tech sector is building is positive for humanity’s creative landscape, and they didn’t just take what used to be the largest and healthiest independent creative marketplace humanity has ever experienced and hand it directly to corporate entities and low-effort, low-value bullshit “content” hucksters.

Re: Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

#95
post #89
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have ire for patent trolls, they exist within the system they create. I have ire for the patent business because I've read and written a number of patent applications, and see the entire thing as mostly bogus. Normally you can't win a lawsuit without proving damages. My overarching point is that buying IP with no intent to use it does not create damages when someone infringes it. And relicensing IP is not "us…

> relicensing IP is not "using" the IP to me - you either use it, or lose it. Unless of course, you're the original author (and by author, I mean the humans, not businesses that paid them) If I come up with a brilliant new compression algorithm, but don't have the software development skills to make a robust production implementation, what difference does it make whether I hire someone to write that production implem…

So there's three cases here worth talking about.

1) You patent something, but don't do anything with it except enforce the patent.

2) You patent something, but the only thing you do with it is license others to use it, potentially hiring someone else to manage the licenses but you retain ownership.

3) You patent something, you sell the patent to someone else to do 2)

Cases 1 and 3 have significant negative effects on both technology and society that the law should prevent. Case 2 covers your brilliant new invention but don't bring it to market yourself and is fine.

The key notion here is that you cannot sell intellectual property. It's ephemeral. You can license it and create all sorts of creative license terms, but once you're dead or the timeline of exclusive rights runs out, or you personally stop "using" it (or all companies stop using it), the patent effectively expires because you can't claim damages if you or your license holders have not seen any negative impacts.

In a perfect world, "defensive" patent strategies and rent-seeking by middlemen would be prevented by construction. This maximizes the incentive to innovate and share ideas, instead of bottling them up. If you want true, exclusive rights to something, don't share it in a patent.

Re: Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

#96
post #12

It seems really strange that a library that wraps FFMpeg is being discontinued due to patent concerns with the underlying codecs, but those codecs are only implemented in FFMpeg itself, which continues along without issues.

ffmpeg, VLC and its associated projects are hosted in France. There aren't any US companies for the MAFIAA to shakedown, and if they tried to file for software patent infringement in France, the French courts would tell them to fuck off. So they go after ffmpeg's US-based users/customers instead.

Are you suggesting using ffmpeg in US is illegal? As far as I am aware there are plenty of US companies using ffmpeg.

Re: Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

#98
post #95
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> relicensing IP is not "using" the IP to me - you either use it, or lose it. Unless of course, you're the original author (and by author, I mean the humans, not businesses that paid them) If I come up with a brilliant new compression algorithm, but don't have the software development skills to make a robust production implementation, what difference does it make whether I hire someone to write that production implem…

So there's three cases here worth talking about. 1) You patent something, but don't do anything with it except enforce the patent. 2) You patent something, but the only thing you do with it is license others to use it, potentially hiring someone else to manage the licenses but you retain ownership. 3) You patent something, you sell the patent to someone else to do 2) Cases 1 and 3 have significant negative effects on…

> Cases 1 and 3 have significant negative effects on both technology and society that the law should prevent. Case 2 covers your brilliant new invention but don't bring it to market yourself and is fine.

How are 2 and 3 meaningfully different as far as anyone outside is concerned though? If I own a field and I'm not a farmer, no-one cares much whether I rent it out to someone else to farm on or sell it to (either for some proportion of their income or for a straight up flat fee). Economically it's all the same - you can rent something or you can buy it funded with a loan, and your cash flows will be more or less identical.

Re: Saying goodbye to FFmpegKit

#99
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ffmpeg, VLC and its associated projects are hosted in France. There aren't any US companies for the MAFIAA to shakedown, and if they tried to file for software patent infringement in France, the French courts would tell them to fuck off. So they go after ffmpeg's US-based users/customers instead.

Are you suggesting using ffmpeg in US is illegal? As far as I am aware there are plenty of US companies using ffmpeg.

Using ffmpeg is not illegal.

Any software you write, or even run, may or may not infringe some half-assed patent, and you will never know until the troll wielding it and deliberately trying to keep it hidden, pounces on you, usually demanding money, threatening to use their government-backed exclusive rights to their "invention" so you either pay what they ask, do what they ask, or they sue you for infringement and sometimes win. Larger companies have large troves of patents and they really don't care what's in them, they care that they have lots and you don't, and they can use them to crush you in court unless you give in to whatever they demand.

Some companies you know of may already have given in, and may already be paying licensing fees to patent holders. It sickens me.

I'm not suggesting, I'm telling you there is an entity, formerly MPEG-LA, now Via Licensing Corp, who maintain a pool of patents that supposedly claim exclusive rights to aspects of some of the video codecs implemented in FFMPEG.

If they hear you're making money, and you use video codecs -- ffmpeg's implementation or otherwise -- they may come to shake you down. They get to pick and choose who they accuse of patent infringement. They can do it at any time (before the expiry of the last patent in the pool). They can do it at the point where they'll have maximum leverage over you. Software patents give them that opportunity.

Should they get in touch with you, your response should be made in consultation with qualified lawyers.

https://ffmpeg.org/legal.html

> Q: Bottom line: Should I be worried about patent issues if I use FFmpeg?

> A: Are you a private user working with FFmpeg for your own personal purposes? If so, there is remarkably little reason to be concerned. Are you using FFmpeg in a commercial software product? Read on to the next question...

> Q: Is it perfectly alright to incorporate the whole FFmpeg core into my own commercial product?

> A: You might have a problem here. There have been cases where companies have used FFmpeg in their products. These companies found out that once you start trying to make money from patented technologies, the owners of the patents will come after their licensing fees. Notably, MPEG LA is vigilant and diligent about collecting for MPEG-related technologies.

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