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How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

reuters.com

91–100 of 311 posts

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#91

I haven't been following this closely, but what was the appeal for Honda? I mean, Nissan has a few cars that are moving in OK numbers these days but I don't see many routes for a return to form over the long run; Commodity cars are a dying breed.

nissan has inventory, factories, dealers , sales channels, financing , inventory, partner relationships.

Companies are so much more than the consumer experience.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#92
Auto industry is an impossible game. Policy makers are forcing them to run concurrent production lines (ICE & electric) , absurdly complex product development, and consumers don't yet want electric vehicles.

You can see this in car price explosion and tanking profits.

The result will be consolidation and further automotive inflation.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#93
post #5

At this point I feel like a rising stock price after a crisis should be a major red flag for long term corporate survival. Carlos Ghosn was able to "turn Nissan around", but it was at the expense of future product capabilities (in my opinion) [Disclosure I work for GM, this is solely my own opinion] Also, I must say that it is not clear to me that anyone could know what a long term winning play looked like 10-15 year…

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind).

Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#94
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Commodity cars are a dying breed. Not in Asia, the worlds biggest car market, and where the worlds biggest car making country is. More than anything, low end electric cars are MASSIVELY popular in China.

Was surprised how popular there are, also self driving taxis in Wuhan and other places.

there's a lot of incentives pushing people into EVs. For example, to limit pollution and congestion it often takes winning a lottery to get a car registration for ICE, but that's generally much laxer if not completely gone for EVs.

In Shanghai at one point the cost of a ICE vehicle registration cost more than a low end EV.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#95
post #36
post #5

At this point I feel like a rising stock price after a crisis should be a major red flag for long term corporate survival. Carlos Ghosn was able to "turn Nissan around", but it was at the expense of future product capabilities (in my opinion) [Disclosure I work for GM, this is solely my own opinion] Also, I must say that it is not clear to me that anyone could know what a long term winning play looked like 10-15 year…

Under Goshn and his close early advisors, Renault-Nissan started working on EVs, launching the Leaf and Zoé. Early, he also managed to streamline production of the two companies, and started to implement management changes that let some workers have more autonomy. The issue is that power got to his head and truly believe he was the second coming of Jesus or something, and stopped improving his companies to rub should…

> and idiotic sycophants made him believe he was above the law and deserved even more

Well in all fairness he is above the law. He walked out of Japan and is free in his country.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#96
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's one graph that basically predicts which countries are going to fail and which are going to prevail. It's the graph that shows how many people in the "doing things" age bracket a country has. Compare these: (germany) https://population.un.org/wpp/graphs?loc=276&type=Probabilis... (alternatively, Europe as a whole) https://population.un.org/wpp/graphs?loc=908&type=Probabilis... (Japan) https://population.un.org…

It is an important variable. But a more realistic picture needs to factor in: 1. median IQ 2. skills 3. future unfunded liabilities (welfare, pensions, public health, etc) China has demographics collapse like the West but they have high median IQ, high skills, and almost no unfunded liabilities. Meanwhile, Western IQ and skills are dropping like a stone and they have trillions in unfunded liabilities. And any attempt…

I think this really depends on how you define unfunded liabilities. China, for example, has mostly not established liabilities because the social systems for retiring are a joke. People instead save personally and shovel those savings into real estate, but the real estate market is collapsing/collapsed because it turns out all that retirement saving driving up the median-house to median-income ratio to 40+x was not sustainable.

To put in perspective how bad that is, cities the West considers expensive:

Paris is 17x

London is 12x

NYC is 9.7x

San Francisco is 9x

---

Shanghai is down from peak but still at 33x, and that's a correction. Either people still can't afford to buy homes, or a large class of homeowners will become destitute elderly people and all that entails for social stability, or the government will have to make up the difference somehow.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#97
post #8

Japanese carmakers are going to become irrelevant [1] unless there's a major change. But that's very unlikely due to: 1. Supply chains and key raw materials mostly controlled by China 2. Japan's demographic collapse 3. Japanese Gen Z fed up with an unwinnable rat race where they live to just pay rent and groceries It's very sad. [1] https://carnewschina.com/2025/01/13/byd-surpass-toyota-in-ja...

There's one graph that basically predicts which countries are going to fail and which are going to prevail. It's the graph that shows how many people in the "doing things" age bracket a country has. Compare these: (germany) https://population.un.org/wpp/graphs?loc=276&type=Probabilis... (alternatively, Europe as a whole) https://population.un.org/wpp/graphs?loc=908&type=Probabilis... (Japan) https://population.un.org…

China still has a good chunk of population in rural area that will keep supporting urban population growth for a while. That being said, I'm not sure how any of those graphs translate to quality of life of an average person living in those countries.

When shit hits the fan, there will be drastic changes, just like how Japan is accepting more and more immigrants every year. That tap will be cut of in a decade or two, because every country will be fighting for them unless we have some magical economical overhaul. I have zero clues what predictions can be made for 2050 in terms of demographics.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#98
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have lifelong customers, but those also don't live forever and can change their opinion, and if the carmakers don't adapt, they won't survive. For the last 19 years we have been buying Toyota, but I'm slowly starting to look for a new car and it has to be an EV and Toyota is currently very underwhelming in that regard in our market.

Meanwhile I bought a 2024 Toyota that gets 10mpg and I fucking love it.

Which 2024 Toyota gets 10mpg?

For example, the formerly beefcake Landcruiser went from a beastly guzzling v8 in 2021 to a weaker v6 in 2022-2023, and now, in 2024, a weak 2.4L supercharged 4-cyl sipper.

R.I.P. Landcruiser of old, you were an ultimate vehicle in your category.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#99
post #95
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under Goshn and his close early advisors, Renault-Nissan started working on EVs, launching the Leaf and Zoé. Early, he also managed to streamline production of the two companies, and started to implement management changes that let some workers have more autonomy. The issue is that power got to his head and truly believe he was the second coming of Jesus or something, and stopped improving his companies to rub should…

> and idiotic sycophants made him believe he was above the law and deserved even more Well in all fairness he is above the law. He walked out of Japan and is free in his country.

> He walked out of Japan

Even better: He escaped by hiding in a music equipment box that was carried onto a private jet

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57760993

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#100
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada doesn't feel like it's winning despite what the graph says*. Bringing in tons of working-aged immigrants has caused housing (and other living) costs to explode, which in turn has lead to less people having children, which leads to more immigration to fill the gap and the whole thing has been spiraling. Not fun at all. * https://population.un.org/wpp/graphs?loc=124&type=Probabilis...

Canada needs to start a campaign to promote smaller cities, rather than concentrating all the people in Toronto and Vancouver.

How small are we talking?

One problem is that many Canadians move away from those smaller cities because there aren’t jobs that pay well, yet that smaller city isn’t significantly cheaper to live in.

Nobody I meet is from the major Canadian city I live in now. Maybe it’s a fluke, I have only met so many people, or maybe us outsiders just managed to find each other.

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