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Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

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Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#91

Post by TeMPOraL »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #60
dcminter wrote: post #10

> What's changed? Largely, the make up of the audience in HN. I sincerely doubt that the hard core of people doing startups, thinking of doing a startup, or just very interested in the topic has gone away or changed attitude very much. But the profile of HN has grown. It's a miracle that it's still an interesting and curious group, but from comments I'd be astounded if there were not a far greater proportion of peopl…

> I'd be astounded if there were not a far greater proportion of people who are here because they are generically interested in tech topics and not specifically startups This is certainly me. Generally interested in tech (and many of the other things that HNers seem to be interested in these days), but no real interest in startups. Hope I am not ruining HN for the old timers. I started using this place a lot more in…

Relative out-timer here. I came here because of smart people having smart discussions about life, universe, and everything (tech or otherwise). HN both got me to drink the startup kool-aid early on, and then cured me from it later on, ultimately making me a startup-skeptic (and infecting me with an unhealthy dose of cynicism). I guess this is how growing up looks like :).

Ultimately, I still hang around HN because of high-quality discussions; there's really no other place like it, or at least I've found none. Or maybe after all this time, it just feels like home. Still, were the balance to shift hard towards startup talk, I fear we'd lose all the intellectual curiosity driven submissions and discussions - they'd just turn into sharing tips and tricks to make moar moneys with tech, which I personally find BOOOOOORING AF.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#92

Post by aziaziazi »

As an ex-engineer in I relate very much with :

> 3. The VC model's limitations have become apparent. The focus on hypergrowth and exits has left many founders [[engineers]] feeling trapped between authentic business building and investor [[founders]] expectations.

Damn me! I’ve be naive to trust the (marketing) promise of the last startup I worked for, as an authentic promise from the founders. A few weeks into and I understood the real goal was to grow and get market shares, whatever the means. I felt betrayed but stayed because I liked my peer and the day to day job, and economic insecurity feeling.

Fast forward 2 years: burnout and quit.

Probably some of the 3 founders did kind of trust in the marketing promise at first and after so many speechs and work they confirmed it via some IKEA effect and confirmation bias [0]. But I felt we were actually building fancy CRUDs (forbidden idea there!) not disturbing anything at all.

0 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#93

Post by aqme28 »

KaiserPro wrote: post #17

I think the bigger issue is that most of the financial upsides of startups were illusory Unless you're a founder, you're unlikely to make any money, and predatory VC/backers using convertibles/senior debt to turn your equity into Zimbabwean dollars. Thats before any stats are calculated for lasting long enough to either IPO, make money or get bought out. As someone who did successfully exit, the stories of multiple-m…

I was the second engineer (series A) at a company that IPO’d at a unicorn valuation. By all rights that’s a great outcome. I made about as much in that exit as I would have if I were just at a FAANG instead

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#94

Post by dcminter »

Macha wrote: post #77
NoboruWataya wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd be astounded if there were not a far greater proportion of people who are here because they are generically interested in tech topics and not specifically startups This is certainly me. Generally interested in tech (and many of the other things that HNers seem to be interested in these days), but no real interest in startups. Hope I am not ruining HN for the old timers. I started using this place a lot more in…

This was always me, and I've been here 15 years. It was pretty much a tech forum then (arguably more then than now, there's much more discussion of culture war issues now, even when stories are flagged it's ever-present in the comments). I think the time when HN was primarily startups was much further back and much briefer than most people nostalgically remember.

Yes, but the proportions have still changed. It's not static, it's a progression.

2010 will have been different to 2008 (when I joined) but so will 2013 with respect to 2010, 2020 with respect to 2013, and 2025 with respect to 2020.

It's fine that it's much more broadly a tech forum now - but it's silly to infer things about the wider world by comparing attitudes in HN across eras unless you take account of the change in demographic.

As to the culture wars? Perhaps it's time for another "erlang love bombing" campaign to recalibrate :D (When was that anyway...?) Edit: Ah yes, it was in 2009: https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2009-03-11

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#95

Post by eamag »

pjc50 wrote: post #86
diggan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the bigger issue is that most of the financial upsides of startups were illusory I wouldn't say I'm an old-timer by any metrics, but even back in 2012 when I first discovered and joined HN, I remember it was pretty clear in the community (and people I spoke to around me) you shouldn't go to work at a startup if you were looking for "a lot + safe" money. Sure, you could belong to the 0.001% and work on the n…

Here's a question: what's the list of startups fitting the criteria of - after 2008 Great Financial Crisis - actual startup, not spinoff from larger company - financially successful exit - early non-founder employees made a substantial amount of money?

GPT: whatsapp, instagram, airbnb, slack, uber, snap

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#96

Post by TeMPOraL »

rUsHeYaFuBu wrote: post #88
TeMPOraL wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in practice, what is driven by curiosity and passion ends up being a better product. If it can survive. The problem here is that startups compete in the same economy as those more sustainable, passion-driven businesses - and because of their ruthless focus on growth, as well as access to vastly more capital, they win , effectively suppressing good products or outright preventing them from entering the market.

Free market thinkers here would say this is the market working as intended.

Free market thinkers should realize that market doesn't work as intended - it just works. POSIWID[0] and all. The workings of the market are sometimes aligned with the best interest of humanity, but not always, and they have no obligation to be, because at this point, we've long lost any control we had over it (if we ever had any).

--

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#97

Post by ghaff »

pjc50 wrote: post #81
diggan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's assuming "Winning" means "More money", but that's not everyone's goal in life. There is plenty of space for smaller companies that earn enough profits to let every employee live a good life, without chasing unicorns.

This is called a "lifestyle business", which some people get very annoyed about. And as mentioned you can't get VC for this model.

I think a lot of people get annoyed (probably including myself) because the term sort of implies that there's great work-life balance which definitely isn't the case with a lot of small businesses.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#98

Post by whstl »

ludwigvan wrote: post #36

Most engineers figured out that the options/stocks of startups are worthless.

I certainly did. I have options/stocks from 3 different companies, all vested, but zero expectation of seeing any money out of it. One of them recently went belly up and had an exit for peanuts.

I didn't go for big tech but I did pick a job on a YC startup that, while demanding, allowed me to purchase my own house and work on my own stuff in the evenings.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#100

Post by nejsjsjsbsb »

pjc50 wrote: post #86
diggan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the bigger issue is that most of the financial upsides of startups were illusory I wouldn't say I'm an old-timer by any metrics, but even back in 2012 when I first discovered and joined HN, I remember it was pretty clear in the community (and people I spoke to around me) you shouldn't go to work at a startup if you were looking for "a lot + safe" money. Sure, you could belong to the 0.001% and work on the n…

Here's a question: what's the list of startups fitting the criteria of - after 2008 Great Financial Crisis - actual startup, not spinoff from larger company - financially successful exit - early non-founder employees made a substantial amount of money?

Why the after 2008 foundatuon criteria. Someone who joined FB in 2010 could have got rich right? Same with Google, Amazon, most other unicorns that established before 2008.
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