Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format • Hacker News Board

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#91

Post by quonn » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 1:45 PM UTC

SiVal wrote: post #34

Where is Google in all this? They must surely be aware of all such IETF projects. I can understand why Apple wasn't mentioned (Apple Island is a world unto itself to the maximum extent possible), but Google has usually pursued the opposite strategy. This seems like the sort of thing they would get behind unless there is some issue I'm unaware of, and it seems as though Mozilla would mention Google in this infomercial…

Well, I suspect they talked to their legal department which _might_ have reasoned like this (IANAL, btw):

"Opus is a hybrid codec that internally uses both, SILK and Celt.

SILK was created by Skype (now Microsoft) and its patent license includes this gem: '5.1 Skype may terminate this License Agreement and any rights granted hereunder in the event that you or any of your Affiliates (i) materially breaches any of the terms and conditions of this Agreement; or (ii) asserts any patent or patent rights against Skype, its Affiliates, or its or their successors or assigns.'

So lets assume Motorola (owned by Google) tries to (counter)sue MS over some Android stuff: Suddenly the patent grant given by Skype becomes invalid and Google might have to remove Opus from Chrome. If it's popular by that time, this is a serious competitive disadvantage.

So better not help making it popular in the first place. "

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#92

Post by ksec » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 2:05 PM UTC

mappu wrote: post #7

(2010) Some discussion about CELT / Opus from the author of x264: http://pbox.ca/16cbg

And Holy Fxxk that is some awesome Hardcore Video and Audio hacker discussion. Great Stuff!!!!

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#93

Post by sp332 » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 2:31 PM UTC

surrealize wrote: post #68

taligent wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It IS proprietary. Google owns WebM and unilaterally makes the decisions about the direction of the format. H.264 is a standard and driven by a standards committee and process comprising numerous companies.

> It IS proprietary. Also, war is peace, freedom is slavery, and innocence is strength!

The code may be open source but the format/spec is 100% controlled by Google. Forking the code won't help you change the direction of format development. If anyone besides Google wants to make changes, they'd have to fork the entire spec under a different standards body.

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#94

Post by mtgx » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:49 PM UTC

quonn wrote: post #91

SiVal wrote: post #34

Where is Google in all this? They must surely be aware of all such IETF projects. I can understand why Apple wasn't mentioned (Apple Island is a world unto itself to the maximum extent possible), but Google has usually pursued the opposite strategy. This seems like the sort of thing they would get behind unless there is some issue I'm unaware of, and it seems as though Mozilla would mention Google in this infomercial…

Well, I suspect they talked to their legal department which _might_ have reasoned like this (IANAL, btw): "Opus is a hybrid codec that internally uses both, SILK and Celt. SILK was created by Skype (now Microsoft) and its patent license includes this gem: '5.1 Skype may terminate this License Agreement and any rights granted hereunder in the event that you or any of your Affiliates (i) materially breaches any of the…

Skype/MS should just make it fully open source then, for the betterment of the web, instead of using it for potential silly legal fights in the future.

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#95

Post by azakai » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 4:40 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #45

azakai wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some (significant) degree, but you never know that no one else has patents on a technology. That's exactly what is so messed up with software patents.

On any specific technology, you absolutely can know that no one else has patents on it. That is the responsibility of the patent office: to grant exclusive rights to an 'invention'. you cannot be held liable for infringement of anything you have a license for. In this case though, Microsoft only has patents on part of the algorithm, so it is theoretically possible that other parts of the algorithm are covered by othe…

> On any specific technology, you absolutely can know that no one else has patents on it. That is the responsibility of the patent office: to grant exclusive rights to an 'invention'.

The problem though is that anything complex like a video or audio codec can constitute many "inventions" from the USPTO's point of view. H.264 has many patents on it, for example. Again, this is one of the big problems with the current patent system.

So in practical terms you can never use a codec with the knowledge that no one else has patents on it.

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#96

Post by azakai » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

slowpoke wrote: post #71

azakai wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. > Notice that permission is only given for implementations that comply with the specification. That's typical - otherwise, you could implement some almost arbitrary protocol but say it was this one (and use a small amount of it) and claim that you were shielded from Skype's patents. The patent license is just for this particular codec. Of course there are issues with this, it's been debated a lot…

>That's typical - otherwise, you could implement some almost arbitrary protocol but say it was this one (and use a small amount of it) and claim that you were shielded from Skype's patents. No, that's what standard bodies are for. No need for stupid patent licenses. Besides, this is exactly why this isn't free. Could I make a format based on Opus, but not conforming to the spec? Maybe because I had an idea for better…

You make a good point, I agree that even with royalty-free licenses like these the use of the technology is not completely free.

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#97

Post by jonknee » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 6:24 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #93

surrealize wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It IS proprietary. Also, war is peace, freedom is slavery, and innocence is strength!

The code may be open source but the format/spec is 100% controlled by Google. Forking the code won't help you change the direction of format development. If anyone besides Google wants to make changes, they'd have to fork the entire spec under a different standards body.

As you would with any standard. If h.264 were open source you couldn't fork it and have it work with existing h.264 devices. It would be a new standard.

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#98

Post by jamesaguilar » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 6:57 PM UTC

taligent wrote: post #61

necubi wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Google has owned Motorola Mobility for fewer than two months[0]. And in any case, though it seldom matters to people insistent on seeing the Android manufacturers in a bad light, Microsoft started this war by demanding licensing fees for ridiculous patents, like this one, for "Generating meeting requests and group scheduling from a mobile device"[1]. If you want to talk about bad guys in this mess, it's th…

I fail to see how it matters how long Google has owned Motorola. They are the ones making the decisions. And this isn't just about Motorola and Microsoft. This is about the principle of ALL contributors to a standard licensing their patents in a fair way. Regardless of whether they are being sued or not or how 'nice' the counter party is. Do you not understand that if Motorola gets away with this then it will set in…

Google did not own Motorola Mobility when the FRAND stuff went down (in February). If you can't see how that's relevant then I guess you probably can't see much at all.

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#99

Post by khuey » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 9:33 PM UTC

azakai wrote: post #21

notatoad wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in some ways, a perpetual unrestricted license is better than an unpatented algorithm. The big excuse for not adopting webm was "uncertainty" about the patent situation. If skype has the patents and is giving free licenses, there isn't any uncertainty here, you know that microsoft has no basis to ever sue.

To some (significant) degree, but you never know that no one else has patents on a technology. That's exactly what is so messed up with software patents.

And in certain situations it's better not to know, because knowingly infringing patents can result in significantly higher monetary penalties than unknowingly infringing them.

Re: Firefox Beta 15 supports the new Opus audio format

#100

Post by shmerl » Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 5:04 AM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #50

shmerl wrote: post #3

Luckily it's going to be W3C standard, and Apple and MS won't be able to use their lame excuses to avoid implementing it in their browsers, like they did for Vorbis, VP8 and etc.

Why exactly couldn't Apple use the very same lame excuse it used against WebM and pro-h.264?

Because it'll show that they aren't supportive of Web standards and they'll look like complete fools - bad PR for them. That's why they were sabotaging any attempts to make other open codecs (like VP8) an official standard for HTML5 video. It's much harder for them to explain why they oppose official Web standards, than just to say they aren't supporting one of the optional codecs.