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If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

jamesshore.com

91–100 of 126 posts

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#91
I don't usually love this type of post, but this one is the exception - very valuable.

Just the section on how to rewrite alone communicates something incredibly valuable that grumpy-engineers like myself have great trouble getting others to understand.

I don't have my mind made-up on XP, I've never worked at a place that actually supported collaboration (often workers spoke different first languages, vastly different experience levels, had minimal social graces, were uncomfortable asking questions), but I think it could exist with great effort and would have a lot of upsides.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#92
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO metaverse was a bet. It's perfectly fine to take a bet that you're not 100% convinced will pay off (professional poker players and traders understand this on a very deep level), as long as the potential upside is massively larger than the downside. Zuck understood that Meta could take the hit if the metaverse bet didn't pay off, but that they'd be massively better off if it did, and they had their own platform. A…

> IMO metaverse was a bet. It was FOMO. They had no vision, they had no plan, it was clear that it was only a thing because it was a buzzword at the time. Just like every other company stuffing crypto-adjacent things everywhere. It might have been a bet, but it was obvious that it was a really terrible one.

Reminds me of Ballmer buying Nokia or Cook buying Beats (or whatever the company was called.) Cook's bet might have worked out a little better than Nokia.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#93

There’s a weird disconnect because on the one hand I agree you can’t measure productivity and on the other hand we all know that some engineers are vastly more productive than others. So what gives?

We all "know" that, but there are also some engineers that only give a very strong illusion of being more productive. Maybe engineer #1 is constantly pushing up code. In the time it takes them to merge 15 PRs, engineer #2 opens only 1 - but maybe they thought really deeply about the problem, and their approach actually saves the team hundreds or thousands of hours of future development work vs how engineer #1 would h…

The problem is that the vast majority of code will not have long term implications so long as it reaches a minimum of design, performance, and does its job without bugs. Consistency of patterns is more important than the optimal pattern for most decisions.

There are some core areas of the application that are much more important, but they are often the earliest data structures and built before the problem is known. You will not know how your code will change, so make it as consistent as possible with the rest of the system until you know more.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#94
post #46
post #21

I appreciate that they have a programming philosophy that they want people at the company to adopt. A common problem I see at companies that don't have onboarding is that people join the team with assumptions from previous jobs but you never level set them with the company. So 12 months down the line the new guy wants to change the process and you have to repeat the same discussions about what agile means for the nth…

> Amazon does a good job of training new hire on the 'Amazon way'. Amazon does 6 pagers, they do design docs. Amazon does SOA. Amazon does not use relational databases. Everything has an API. Because of the 'Amazon way' and the training they do new team members understand at least some of the context and expectations. As a counterpoint, a huge part of Amazon's culture (or at least, AWS's) in my experience was the emp…

My team didn't add new members to the oncall rotation for about 6 months to ameliorate this issue. But starting oncall at first is rough and even with months of context on our systems people usually take a few rotations before they really figure it out. We expected new members to have to escalate.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#95
> It was September 2023 and my CEO was asking me a question. > “How are you measuring productivity?”

This is sort of like your girlfriend asking you "how much do you love me". Except if you answer wrong, it's still more likely that your girlfriend will stay with you than that you'll keep your VP of engineering job.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it have bought instagram and whatsapp? Would it have identified major social media trends in competitors that couldn't be bought and outcompeted them at their own game? Would it have suggested developing your own ad platform or just should banner space per cpm? There is a lot to not like about Meta and Zuckerberg, but saying he's a bad business man is a little silly. Metaverse was a wrong and expensive move, bu…

Exactly. I’ve never understood this criticism. A good CEO (in terms of the business) is able to make significant, groundbreaking decisions but is also able to reverse course quickly if those decisions aren’t working out (anyone remember the Facebook phone)? Unless the CEO is psychic, they’re necessarily going to make a lot of bad or wrong decisions. The key is being able to recover quickly and move on to the next thi…

The assumption that hierarchical organizations are inevitable blinds us to more effective ways of organizing. When we look at companies today, their feudal-like structure means CEO decisions naturally have outsized impact - but this is a product of the system, not inherent necessity.

Take Meta's acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp under Zuckerberg. While these proved strategically valuable, framing them as evidence of unique CEO insight misses a crucial point: Many others in the organization likely would have made similar choices given the same position and information. The success stems more from the concentrated decision-making power than from individual brilliance. What's fascinating is how we conflate organizational structure with individual capability. When good outcomes emerge from hierarchical systems, we rush to credit the person at the top rather than examining how the structure itself shapes and amplifies their decisions. This creates a self-reinforcing cycle: hierarchical success is used to justify more hierarchy.

But imagine if we distributed decision-making power more broadly, tapping into the collective intelligence and diverse perspectives of entire organizations. Research on collective intelligence and successful worker cooperatives suggests groups often make better decisions than individuals, especially on complex issues. Companies like Valve and Morning Star have demonstrated that flat organizations can be both innovative and profitable. The real opportunity lies in reimagining organizational structures that harness our full human potential - not just that of a select few at the top. By questioning our assumptions about hierarchy, we open ourselves to discovering more dynamic, equitable, and effective ways of working together.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#97
post #91

I don't usually love this type of post, but this one is the exception - very valuable. Just the section on how to rewrite alone communicates something incredibly valuable that grumpy-engineers like myself have great trouble getting others to understand. I don't have my mind made-up on XP, I've never worked at a place that actually supported collaboration (often workers spoke different first languages, vastly differen…

It is likely a bit of nostalgia on my part, but one of my first gigs had an owner that was focused on XP being the way we worked, and given how junior the team was overall, I think it produced excellent results and made for a fun, lively atmosphere.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#98
The advice seems reasonably good but I needed to bail on the post because of the cartoons. The anime crossed with precious moments style of illustration is just too creepy and inserts a lot of doubt to me personally on the authoritativeness of the author.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it have bought instagram and whatsapp? Would it have identified major social media trends in competitors that couldn't be bought and outcompeted them at their own game? Would it have suggested developing your own ad platform or just should banner space per cpm? There is a lot to not like about Meta and Zuckerberg, but saying he's a bad business man is a little silly. Metaverse was a wrong and expensive move, bu…

IMO metaverse was a bet. It's perfectly fine to take a bet that you're not 100% convinced will pay off (professional poker players and traders understand this on a very deep level), as long as the potential upside is massively larger than the downside. Zuck understood that Meta could take the hit if the metaverse bet didn't pay off, but that they'd be massively better off if it did, and they had their own platform. A…

No. "Bet" implies some sort of clear vision or value proposition. Metaverse was a dream.

It's okay to dream. It's not okay to burn billions of dollars on dreams with no proof of concept or business plan. Set aside the question of whether or not it's a bad idea - that's just plain bad execution.

Re: If we had the best product engineering organization, what would it look like?

#100
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO metaverse was a bet. It's perfectly fine to take a bet that you're not 100% convinced will pay off (professional poker players and traders understand this on a very deep level), as long as the potential upside is massively larger than the downside. Zuck understood that Meta could take the hit if the metaverse bet didn't pay off, but that they'd be massively better off if it did, and they had their own platform. A…

> IMO metaverse was a bet. It was FOMO. They had no vision, they had no plan, it was clear that it was only a thing because it was a buzzword at the time. Just like every other company stuffing crypto-adjacent things everywhere. It might have been a bet, but it was obvious that it was a really terrible one.

Not really. FB was choked by Apple and trolled by Google for so long, Zuck understood his position without a hardware platform in the furture. XR seems to be a reasonable bet which he already have an edge. If he won, he won big.
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