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Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

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Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#91

Post by Moru »

Ozzie_osman wrote: post #89
eddythompson80 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My takeaway is that the French investigators are pros and the Egyptians are hacks Describing them as "hacks" is weird. In most dictatorships, the concern is usually "What does the country's leadership want the official story to be" rather than "What actually happened". Take this quote from the article for example > "In my opinion, the problem with the report is that it appears to treat the findings of the Triple Co…

> In most dictatorships, the concern is usually "What does the country's leadership want the official story to be" rather than "What actually happened". This also occasionally happens in non-dictatorships, unless you considered George W a dictator when he was deciding to invade Iraq.

Whataboutism isn't really the answer here. When the population knows this is the way it works and bends themselves like a pretsel to make their government not kill them, it's not good. You can't compare that to a western country, not even the US is that bad.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#92

Post by Moru »

lazide wrote: post #86
ngneer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was afraid you were going to say that ;). Thanks for the sage advice. I think that "safety inspector" would not be a good career choice for people like myself, then. Methinks Boeing and OceanGate had been in the news recently with similar safety attitudes. Oh, well. Live and learn.

Notably, the type of people who do B are extremely dangerous around anything involving engineering, science, etc - anything where reality actually matters. Because type A people are what are required to actually fix problems, or learn more things. Type B people exist when those are ‘not desirable’. Which should indeed scare you, if you care about actual reality (or actual reality matters) in that domain.

Especially when type A people are working in an environment where the leadership with the guns is type B people. Then type A will proactively switch to type B reasoning to stay alive.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#93

Post by 23B1 »

mmooss wrote: post #70
23B1 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The former are interesting topics to be sure, but have very little to do with with active engagement in modern society.

Thanks for clarifying. IMHO history and the fall of Rome in particular seem among the most valuable topics today!

You could be right!

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#94

Post by eadmund »

> there was no evidence that the pilots of flight 804 smoked during the flight. But even though the BEA found that a cigarette didn’t cause the fire on flight 804 … the BEA recommended that EASA examine these risks and amend regulations as necessary

Smoking had nothing to do with this incident. Their own testing showed that holding a cigarette in the oxygen stream was (surprisingly) not dangerous. The only risk from cigarettes they found was deliberately trying to light oxygen tubing with a cigarette.

And yet, despite a complete lack of both relevance and evidence, they included a recommendation to clamp down on pilot smoking. Anti-smoking is hysteria.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#95

Post by eadmund »

qingcharles wrote: post #72

This is wild to me: "Even though passengers have been forbidden from smoking on airplanes for 25 years, the rules about smoking in the cockpit are less straightforward, and international regulations appear to invest the captain with the authority to decide whether smoking will be allowed or not."

Why is it surprising? There’s no danger from smoking on-board; banning it was never about safety.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#96

Post by PanMan »

eadmund wrote: post #95
qingcharles wrote: post #72

This is wild to me: "Even though passengers have been forbidden from smoking on airplanes for 25 years, the rules about smoking in the cockpit are less straightforward, and international regulations appear to invest the captain with the authority to decide whether smoking will be allowed or not."

Why is it surprising? There’s no danger from smoking on-board; banning it was never about safety.

There is a danger, but not a direct danger (of the plane crashing). It certainly isn't healthy :)

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#97

Post by eadmund »

inglor_cz wrote: post #11

On a somewhat related note, Egyptian science tends to suffer from a massive scientific misconduct (fraud) problem - see for example this paper by Egyptian authors, which covers the medical field: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.20.23286195v... Maybe the attitude towards "truth vs. face" is similar in Egyptian governmental institutions. Egypt in general is a low-trust society, scoring lower than India…

> Maybe the attitude towards "truth vs. face" is similar in Egyptian governmental institutions.

My initial instinct when reading the prologue was to think about that, and be proud that we’re not like that. But then I reflected a bit more, and wondered. When folks say something we dislike, do we consider that it may be true, or do we shut down the conversation?

I’m reminded of the response to any number of public controversies in my lifetime, when unpopular arguments did not result in compelling counter-arguments but instead in shout-downs.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#98

Post by inglor_cz »

eadmund wrote: post #97
inglor_cz wrote: post #11

On a somewhat related note, Egyptian science tends to suffer from a massive scientific misconduct (fraud) problem - see for example this paper by Egyptian authors, which covers the medical field: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.20.23286195v... Maybe the attitude towards "truth vs. face" is similar in Egyptian governmental institutions. Egypt in general is a low-trust society, scoring lower than India…

> Maybe the attitude towards "truth vs. face" is similar in Egyptian governmental institutions. My initial instinct when reading the prologue was to think about that, and be proud that we’re not like that. But then I reflected a bit more, and wondered. When folks say something we dislike, do we consider that it may be true, or do we shut down the conversation? I’m reminded of the response to any number of public cont…

This is a good observation, but as usual, everything comes in degrees of severity.

To fabricate an implausible report about a plane crash which took more than 60 lives is a very deep institutional problem, let us hope that this won't become the planetary norm.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#99

Post by synecdoche »

Dalewyn wrote: post #46
ngneer wrote: post #13

A rather well-written piece. My takeaway is that the French investigators are pros and the Egyptians are hacks. And that safety culture matters. One must not bend the facts to draw a desired conclusion. One must review the data without bias, or else recuse oneself.

>One must not bend the facts to draw a desired conclusion. One must review the data without bias, or else recuse oneself. There are essentially two ways to solve a mystery: A) Consider the evidence and draw a conclusion from them. B) Consider the conclusion and draw the evidences for it. Neither is the correct methodology, especially when politics, power dynamics, and social justice are involved.

Could someone explain when A) it’s not the correct methodology, unless B) is preferable?

B) appears preferable only under duress and then only to the benefit of saving one’s own skin temporarily, however long that may be.

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